Northstar Loran repair/replacement/KLN90B

[kevin]

It was a tough trip for avionics (very hot)(yes I checked the fan). My Northstar M1 Loran has been becoming a bit ditzy for the last five or six flight hours, and on this trip it totally threw in the towel, being unable to find its location or maintain a nav lock.

So, being as I am uninterested in paying 6K+ to replace it with a panel mount GPS (I already have a Garmin 295), I want to get it repaired. Has anybody out there done that recently? Any comments or suggestions?

Thanks,

Kevin

[skymstr02]

Kevin, when my M1 started that nonsense, I ended up buying a used unit from Tropic Aero for $300, and it came with an updated database also for the same price. I originally bought my unit from Tropic Aero.

Its a viable option.

Dave
O-2A
"Viet Cong Hunting Club"

[Bob Cook]

Whats Loran? Is that not like ADF? <G>

Go get a used KLN90B on ebay for less than 1200 dollars. It works great. Besides it is certifiable for approaches. Nice combo with the 295. Price is right!

Just a suggestion.

Bob

[kevin]

Hmmm... KLN90B. Interesting idea. I think it is taller than the M1, not sure how I would get it into the panel, but have to look into it....

Kevin

[Keven]

Bob:

What's required for the installation of the KLN90B? Right now I'm using the antiquated KNS80 RNAV, but hey, it keeps me legal for "direct".

Keven
________
Rehab forums (http://www.rehab-forum.com/rohypnol-rehab/)

[WebMaster]

I when our STS loran packed it in, I looked at the used IFR gps's on ebay, and the thing that is missed is that for IFR certifcation, you are looking at 40 hours shop time. It makes the cheap GPS expensive. I was able to find an exact replacement loran on EBAY for $60. take the old out, the new in, and you're down the pike. It was cheaper than repairing, and since we were putting in the exact same make model, not a lot of paper work, no figuring out interfaces, etc.

[kevin]

Thank you all for your replies.

My shop has a Northstar M2 that they just removed from an Aero Commander, so we are going to try swapping that in place of the M1 to see if the problems go away (just in case it is the airplane, not the box). (They are not going to install the GPS portion of the M2.)

If the M2 works, I will likely send in the M1 to be repaired, as it has been very reliable, and Northstar will put in a new receiver board for $150. If I buy another unit, who knows what intermittants I may be buying.

It may be throwing good money after bad, I dunno. I really don't want to spend another 3 - 4K on the KLN90B and install right now...although I think the KLN90B might be just what I am looking for, since I am not enthusiastic about 10K for an installed G430, and I get all the moving map I want from the G295... The KLN90B would fit in the same panel space as the Northstar too.

I need to be wealthy, it would make these decisions easier.

Kevin

[Jerry De Santis]

I came across a Northstar M1 for a $100.00. I bought it just for a spare and in fact, keep it in the aircraft just in case I may need it on a trip. Suggest you check different shops that sell GPS etc. They always have second hand lorans that they replaced. I am sure you can get a complete set for about $100.00.
Good hunting.
Jerry

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

Why not just fix up the loran and use the 295 . I think the 295 does just about everything the 430 does! I have used the 295 when I had an hsi failure and it saved my "". you need an MDS switcher, rewiring and certificiation for the 90B to be approach certified which brings the total to 3k and engineering costs to put the antenna in a pressurized vessel.... forgot about that one! Instead of the 430 or 530 I opted for the Echoflight which I now rely on heavily for wx. Saved about 15k in the process. Besides you need to keep the database current and that's another 400/yr. The kns80 still works, I use it now and again so I don't forget how to use it <G>.

I'd wait for a year or so as there gps mapping is still at it's infancy.

Bob

[kevin]

As long as I can keep the M1 functional, I plan to do just what you suggest. If it becomes uneconomical to repair or replace it with used, then I may think about your KLN90 suggestion, because I like 3-4K better than 10 - 11K (I forgot about the pressurized antennae costs). I want to have two area navigators in the plane, (3 actually counting my IFR approved KNS80, my Loran is IFR enroute approved as well) as I fly direct almost everywhere, VFR and IFR (it's nice to live in the west). If I am going to replace the M1, something with GPS approach capability would be nice, and used KLN90s are low priced, I guess because of small map and usability. I care not about the map, and I'm a software engineer, so it will probably seem completely intuitive to me :D .

I did learn a lesson my previous handheld GPS. I had (still have) a Trimble Flightmate, one of the original aviation GPS handhelds. It developed a display problem, so I spent $300 bucks to repair it, thinking I was saving money over the $1500 for a 295. Three months later, it would not navigate any more, and estimated repair costs were $500. Time to quit, but it sure felt like that $300 was wasted... I don't want to repeat that experience with Northstar, as much as I like their unit.

Kevin

[SkyKing]

Kevin, et al...

For 'further-down-the-road', wonder if you've considered the color version of either the 5000 or 7000 Argus moving map displays? You could then couple to your M1 Loran and also double-time with ADF display if you wanted and with the 295 you'd be pretty well set. I also understand the Argus has Stormscope overlay capability and RMI.

We have the Apollo 618TCA Loran with V-Nav and it has been a very reliable piece of gear, but have been thinking about swapping out for a KLN-88 and then piggyback it with a KLN90B, switchable to the Argus color display. (Best of both worlds? -- Loran and GPS!) Only thing is the KLN-88 seems to need lots of cooling air... wonder if it's the same with the KLN90B?

Has anyone installed the newer Argus color units, either the 5000 or 7000 CE? Without redoing the entire panel and keeping our existing equipment (KNS80, KY196A, KX155), the Argus seems a viable economic option with the addition of the KLN88 and KLN90B. The GPS antenna is already mounted and wired up top side, and we've already got the KLN88 with rack, so all we need to find now is a KLN90B and a surplus Argus.

Like Bob says, GPS mapping is in its infancy and as more and more people covert to the newer glass, there'll be all sorts of great deals for those of us on the 'Champaigne of Beer' budgets!

SkyKing

[kevin]

I looked at the Argus when I was trying to figure out how to shoehorn a WX-950 Stormscope into my panel. Unlike most people, I really don't care about moving maps, and nowdays, when I need that, I look at my 295. All I want from whatever replaces the M1 is IFR approved GPS nav, including approaches. And I don't want to have ANOTHER device that I have to update in addition to the GPS, (as you do with the Argus). Again, I think I am in the minority, most folks seem to really like moving maps.

BTW, another benefit I just discovered to the KLN90B is that I can update the database from my laptop, without buying a card writer from Jeppessen, like I do my 295. Nice...

Kevin

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

I have seen a number of 90B's on EBAY. It is rock solid and I use it for approaches. I update with the laptop monthly. Takes about 3.5 mbs of data. It is hooked up the the shadin as well as the Encoding altimeter. I use the 90B as a primary Altitude alerter. Also have the EI superclock/ alt alerter to a second encoder as backup.
I have never had a raim alarm ever ! With the 90B and a 295 I really saw no reason to go for Garmin 430 or 530.
I find it simple to use, not overly intuitive, but definately ROCK SOLID. So I have decided to keep the 90B until I can find a real good reason to get lazy........ such as going to the kln94.... It's a good deal considering they were going for 7k last year.

i have the simulator if you want to play with it.

Sounds like u will need to leave your CC's at home if your going to OSH <G>. Scary..............

Bob

[GMAs]

To put the 90 in requires just a 337 form... provided you are not going to do IFR with it... nor would I want to use it for a approch... I had some real interesting things happen when I used the one in the kingair... and the nav management stuff is right behind it... even the faa doesn't like it too much... as they say they won't approve it till its been in service for a while... sort of a trial by fire ting... so for nav its great enroute... but, for the rest... I use the needles... I am old fash I guess..... but, your original installation has one in it... Loran... and your replacing it with a new GPs... which is only weight and power change... kinda thing... and some FAA offices don't even want to see a 337 form because you are changing it with ...kind... and the weight and power requirements are negiable...

and bob what is wrong with ADF... one of the finest things to come along since radar.... it will do so much more that they don't tell you about... besides listen to the ball game... news and local weather... smile... GMAs...

[kevin]

Heck, there was not just one but TWO NDBs on the approach I did into Castlegar last weekend. Bob being Canadian, I *know* he knows what NDBs are, probably uses them so much he is trying to forget...

My airplane lived in Canada for a while before I bought it, which is how, I suspect, it came to have a two needle RMI.

Nowdays, I use the ADF for...ahem...primary navigation during an ADF approach, and the Garmin 295 purely for...ahem...situational awareness.

'Course in the Bahamas where Bob lives, they navigate purely by the smell of rum drinks on warm breezes. And use the 295 for situational awareness.

When I made my first out of sight of land overwater flight (to Grand Cayman) I had both VORS, the ADF, the GPS and the Loran all pointing at Georgetown, as well as four Mk1 eyeballs (all serviceable but worn). Now THAT'S situational awareness.

Kevin

[Bob Cook]

GMAS / Kevin

My first instrument ride was orientation on a "range" in a 150 hp apache.
ADF, twin rmi's was the cadillac in Canada. NDB approaches were pretty stnd. I still have my ADF KR-87 and it works. I have done approaches with the 90B and works rock solid. We had to have it certified before use. ADF is still good to listen to talk radio. In fact most airlines will not allow ADF approaches anymore. Apparently AA flight into montreal was given a hold on an NDB and they couldn't comply. Their 727's do not have any form of RNAV, not even a kns80 <G>.

Re navigation in Bahamas

We follow the "floatsam", the grass and other debris in the water. More of it the closer it is to land. We can navigate by smell or just follow the boats. Need to look for florida registrations......

BTW the "markers" are being constantly removed. BTW GMAS have you seen the "white light" flash on your marker beacon panel lately?

BTW the Treasure airport was totally full on July 4th. Over 60 aircraft including a G4 and a couple of citations, and one kingair.
Absolutely no tie downs open. That was a first.

Bob

[kevin]

A knowledgeable friend suggested I consider the KLN-89B rather than the 90, because the operating logic is somewhat improved. Both are approach approved. The 89 is cheaper, on Ebay right now for $1K. Anyone have any comments on the KLN-89B?

Kevin

[SkyKing]

Kevin,

One of my relatives flies a Cessna 414 and they had a KLN89B that proved to be an unreliable headache... he switched over to the KLN90B and has been happy ever since. Having played with both, the KLN90B is a much more substantial piece of avionics and I personally like the green display rather than orange. Now, what came first, the KLN89B or the KLN90B? Me thinks the latter, so I'm not exactly sure how the 'operating logic' could have been improved, but each to his own medicine. Yes... the KLN89B is cheaper... because it IS cheaper and not as substantial as the KLN90A or 90B.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!

KLN90B ONLY

The 89 came first then the 90 then the 90B. The 90 is a rack replacement for the 89. The 89 was not reliable, did not have RAIM and did not have enough memory for the database. It is really tight now due to all the intersections and five letter waypoints.

I played with the 89 and did not like it. I mentioned I have the simulator if you want me to pass it along. Just email me.

The 90B is rock solid and I have had zero problems with it. I trust it 100 %. The green display is very bright during daylight and dims nicely. It is actually a CRT.

I saw one go on ebay for 1100 with yellow tag and a new GPS antenna. They are worth 400 dollars alone!
Make sure you get the data cartridge with it. Any yes, updates are reasoneable when you download thru the internet.

NOTHING LESS THAN THE 90 B or go the 94.

Bob

[kevin]

Thanks for the advice about which one you prefer. I think, however, that you are both wrong about the order the models were introduced. The KLN90 was the first King panel mount GPS, and the 90B was the first with approach approval. This is why you see so many units available on the market - they went into turbine equipment and are coming out now for newer stuff. The 89 was a lower cost unit (gas plasma display rather than CRT) that came out after the 90. I have read both manuals, and the 89 clearly came after the 90 in software development. For example, on the 90, the approach must be added to the end of a flight plan, on the 89, you can just select an approach and fly it.

Maybe I remember wrong, but I followed the GPS equipment very closely when it first came out, and this is the way I remember it.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on which is a better unit, and what I wrote above is not meant to contradict that.

Kevin

P.S. Just checked with my avionics shop to see how the new transponder is going, and he confirms the KLN90B was introduced before the KLN89B. He says he is not aware of any issues with database size on the 89B. Anybody out there actually having these problems themselves, can tell me more about what they are? -Kevin

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

You are probably correct. I know they took the 90 back and upgraded them for a price. I think there is a difference in the database, and yes, they were very popular in oil burners. They were also very expensive. I think the 94 is the same as the 90 but more intuitive with a moving map. Trouble is the trays are different and everything needs to be swapped out. I tried that route and gave up.

Guess it depends if you want certification or not.

Wait for Osh and get a new 530 on sale...........

bob

[Kevin McDole]

I too recall the introduction sequence the same as Kevin. It was 90, 90A, 90B, then the 89.

My hangar mate's Mooney Ovation came with a 90B - and two years later when he upgraded to the Bravo, the 89B came standard.

I vaguely recall there was a problem with the approaches on the 89B and for a some period of time they lost their IFR certification. I don't remember the details, nor the fix.

In my opinion, the KLN90B is a good unit, but the "moving map" it offers couldn't be more primative. As someone else suggested, coupled with an Argus it's a nice setup. Unlike Bob, I have had a few RAIM errors. I had one of the early units and it has been to the factory for upgrades a couple of time. I haven't see the RAIM errors in several years now.

Regarding flying GPS approaches, with any unit you choose, make sure you really understand the steps required. The GPS Tee approaches are so easy they may lull you into a sense that you understand the unit better than you do. Try a GPS/NDB overlay with the procedure turn, where the NDB is used for the IAF, FAF, and Missed. That will quickly show you whether you understand the "details."

And I'll needlessly mention, the Garmin 430/530 blows away the KLN90B in ease of use, features, and situational awareness. But of course it costs a small fortune.

[Bob Cook]

Kevinm

Couldn't agree with you more. The 90B is primitive but for enroute works great. With simulator practice and understanding you can do GPS approaches just fine. A 295 gives you backup and situational awareness for 1200 dollars. In fact the VNAV function of the 295 blows away the 530... figure that one out!

I don't do circling approaches and I haven't shot many gps approaches but when coupled to the 525 they blow away any VOR approach hands down for precision and safety. The standardization of the T approach makes it really simple.

Maybe I am from the old school when an ADF needle and wet compass was a luxury. I haven't used a VOR in a year. Having accurate databases and flying to intersections makes life a lot easier. Now where was that paper chart?

Bob

[Kevin McDole]

Originally posted by Bob Cook In fact the VNAV function of the 295 blows away the 530Bob,

The only time I've used VNAV was on the 530 - and I got hooked pretty quickly. It is a great feature. Tell me more about how the 295 works.

[Bob Cook]

The HSI steering bars (like the ILS) has a vertical bar that will track with a preset rate of decent and a location/altitude that you define as a "DH". When initialized, the 295 will warn you a minute or so prior to your required initial decent point (determined by calculated ground speed). You then fly the decent by tracking the "glide slope" horizontal bar. It will continue to provide your required altitude along the decent path and warn you coming up to the wp/altitude.

This feature was not inplemented in the 530 due to possible misuse, whereas he 295 is a VFR device and there is no way it could be construed as a IFR certified product. Hmmmm. Guess we call this "lawyer limited" <G>.

It works very well. The 90B has one as well but it is very primitive to the point of being useless.

In fact I can take the output of the 295 and download it on Flightstar and see my entire flight. Will output time vrs L/Long, or inversely upload my entire flightplan from Flightstar which beats handloading the 90B. ( all of two - six waypoints <G>). Try that with the 530 ---- no way! I can update the database via the internet for 30 dollars. I do this about once every 90 days.

Extremely powerful for the $$. In fact the only difference I really see is the approach overlays are missing ie. holding patterns and some of the more complex gps approaches. I see most of the gps approaches in the database including all the airways / intersections and routes for the bahamas and the caribbean and Canada. It doesn't have the missed proceedures in DB either. It has all the interstate rest stops etc. whereas the 530 doesn't <G>

fyi


Bob

[Kevin McDole]

Wow! The 295 sounds way cool. Thanks.

[Mitch Taylor]

Bob:

I use the VNAV function on my 295 as well, but I'm still a little off setting it up. What do you use for the altitude and distance from waypoint when you're setting the VNAF?

Mitch Taylor

[Bob Cook]

Mitch

you need a destination WP loaded. You can either select pattern height or alt and distance from destination in setup. You then set up in profile rate of decent and it will compute the starting point for let-down. Remember this is not barometric altitude as there is no barometric correction. You need to look at the barometric alt and possibly compensate for difference.

BTW GARMIN JUST ANNOUNCED A NEW 196 GPS TO BE RELEASED NEXT WEEK AT OSH. IF YOU CANNOT FIND INFO I CAN SEND IT TO YOU .......

bob

[Mitch Taylor]

Bob:

Thanks for the info.

Mitch.

[SkyKing]

Say Bob,

What's the story on the '196' Garmin? I have a 195 that I want to get rid off and have been looking to replace it with the 295, but now another number...Hhmmm. Tell me more.

When you gonna be out West? Let's have an eye-ball QSO at 1S0 when you're in the area.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

Skyking

sent you an email

bob