TX or mid-west 337 pre-buy shop/Air conditioning?/Available P337s

does anyone know of a qualified shop in TX or the mid-west to conduct a thorough pre-buy inspection on a Riley T337G-P? Anyone to stay away from?

[Bob Cook]

Could recommend one at AGC. They are very good. Think Larry B can recommend someone in Michigan.

bob

I'm over at CMH so AGC would be convenient. MI's also not far, is the MI contact John Russman?

[Bob Cook]

You haven't given me your name. Is it "JAZZ".

Lane aviation is very good but quite expensive.

I suggest
Advanced Maintenance 412 466 8790 at AGC. Persons name is Steve. I do my annuals with him and he knows the AC inside out (Riley). If you know what you are doing, he will let you work with him. There are hotels close by and he is very thorough. He specializes in MU-2s and Cessnas..

I go into Marysville, Blue Ash and KLUK quite often.

fyi

Bob

[Bob Cook]

I should have figured you may be looking at the one at Lane (guess you wouldn't want them to do the pre-buy ;>(


You should check the rear engine since it is original. It probably has the VAR crank that will need replacing (probably the front as well) if the cases are split (6k$ each). Also see if it is a "C" or "CB". IF "C" then check to see if there is a "H" on the case for heavy duty. I am not sure which engine was delivered with AC.

2) check AD on props. There was a problem with inspection of bolts with the earlier props. The annual inspection is no longer authorized by McCauley.

3) would consider borescope or pull a jug to check for corrosion on engine (rear). 1200 hrs is pretty low time.

4) Check dates on gear hoses and fuel hoses. They may need to be replaced. About 2500 dollars plus labor for all.

5) Flight test to check pressurization would be a MUST, also to check to see if you can hold press to 20k. Seals around control cables may be shot.

******Other note********
There is NO Air conditioning and you are going to find this AC extremely warm. You will need to put 20k aside to keep your head from frying unless you plan to run this north of the 40th parrellel. Try it on a warm day to see if you can accept it this way.

"They" say the engine is rated at 250hp at 37 inches. WRONG. Try 225 hp. There are no mods to get to 250 hp unless you go to the SUPER Skyrocket with a pair of 540's/

Just passing comments.....

if you are not familiar with the P337, he rated performance figures quoted are erring on the optomistic side.


Bob

[kevin]

Just for another viewpoint, I run my P337 with cabin alititude set to 9,000' in the summer (so that I get max outside airflow - when pressurization kicks in, outside airflow reduces by about 50%), and climb to high altitude on most trips. Perhaps my brains are already fried, but I find that I get acceptable airflow during the climb. Yes, when it is 90 or 100 F outside, it is hot, but not $20K worth of hot. (I fly in the southwest quite a bit - Nevada, Arizona, New Mexico, Souther Cal.) Also, adding air conditioning has been specifically warned against by several sources, as it makes maintenance even more of a challenge (access is more difficult).

'Course I've never had air conditioning, and Bob has, so what do I know...

Kevin
Fried Brain P337 pilot.

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

Anyone from Oregon surely does not know what HOT IS. Yes you can get around it. Sitting on the tarmac at 100 deg and 100%humidity wishing you were in Oregon isn't much fun; been there!
Yes, you do skin your nuckles more.....

bob

[kevin]

Have flown unairconditioned airplanes in the Phillipines, Thailand, Mexico, Arizona, Texas, New Mexico. Maybe I know TOO well what hot it... ;-)

How do you unfry your brains?

Kevin

[SkyKing]

Hey Bob & Kevin,

Don't know whether you have intercoolers, but even on the rare hot, humid, sunny days that we have up here in the Pacific Northwest, they do help in keeping the cabin fairly comfortable as that compressed air gets a good cooling first before it enters. Well, maybe not down low... but Kevin's got the right idea... go unpressurized down low if temperature conditions warrant. However, with the climb rates of these turbocharged models, it doesn't take too long to get to altitude where the air is naturally air conditioned! Wow, $20K for air... that's a lot for 'cold'! (Think of all the avgas $20K will buy!!!)

BTW, our 1977 P-model has the American Aviation Intercoolers, and the radiator section appears to be a little larger than the Riley, and with a more streamlined, smoother scoop.

SkyKing

[SkyKing]

Jazzman:

Since I have some personal knowledge about two of the P337's out there for sale, I thought I'd share my two cents. In Trade-A-Plane, you'll find a 1977 model (N1ZJ)... and a 1978 model (N90BK) and they're both in Texas.

N1ZJ was a bank repo that we bid on for $70K, but we lost out by about $2K... the airplane was run out, and in need of paint and interior work, although all of the avionics and panel were factory original and all in working order (all 400 series). It was equipped with R/STOL and last time I checked, the asking price had been reduced to $198K... but it was given a complete makeover. It has new engines, American Aviation Intercoolers and all new Garmin stuff, plus a new leather interior.... very sharp!

The other P-model is N90BK and when we lost the bid tried to secure this one. However, for our needs, it was pretty light on radios, but did have radar, didn't have a hot prop and no de-ice, and had the big Keith type air conditioning box in the rear, all original and new-looking interior. But best of all it was only 1600 TT and 300 or 400 hours on each engine. It went for $125K. The new owner has now completed a makeover and is asking $275. They ripped out the old Keith box and installed Riley air, went to a new panel with Garmins, new engines, new paint and the works. If you could negotiate with the owner, this would be a VERY nice bird. I've tried to attach a jpeg, but if you have access to T-A-P on line, you'll find the whole spread.

If you happen to secure either of these birds, I have all of the original documentation and the 'before' pictures.

SkyKing

[SkyKing]

Jazzman:

Here are some more pics of the low-time 1978 P-model, N90BK.

SkyKing

SkyKing, I was looking at two of them - N403V and N1ZK. ZK is at Lane and was previously addressed in this post (original rear with 1265TT, front has 90SFRM but had a melt down at 87hrs and only 3hrs since coming off repairs, needs prop overhauls, boots are in poor shape, had damage, and has only been flown 10hrs in the last 3 years and 0 in the last 18 months...). 3V is the one I'm moving on, but am waiting for verification of complete logs and NDH. Any scoop on either appreciated.

[SkyKing]

Jazzman:

I'm not familiar with either P337's. I looked on TAP, Controller and ASO, but didn't see N403V... what are the specs, times and asking price... might be able to give you some ideas.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

Skyking

The one is on the laneaviation sight. www.laneaviation.com. I can't find 403V either.

bob

is both @ www.superskyrocket.com and Bill Crews' www.skymaster.com site

[SkyKing]

Jazzman:

You should contact Stephen Brown, the owner of N1ZJ... you'd do better by this bird than N403V. Why? Because it's a model year newer, has R/STOL, is plumbed for boots, has the ice light, hot prop, is equipped with American Aviation Intercoolers, a complete new leather interior and has a Garmin 430, plus original 400A A/P, w/IFCS and flight director, HSI, plus fresh engines and new paint. This bird has no previous damage history. I'll just bet that he's got at least $170,000 into it and he first listed it for $225K. He's dropped the price to $198K, and seeing how it's been on the market for some time, you might be able to strike a really good deal if the A/C is to your liking. I've attached a photo.

This is the bird I was telling you about that we'd bid on and I've been through all the original paperwork on it when Sacremento Aviation had it before the bank took it. I believe this '77 offers the most bang for the buck... save maybe for air conditioning -- "IF" you really have to have it. And who knows, maybe you could get her for less than the asking price.

What part of the country are you located?

SkyKing

Here's the T-A-P scoop:

1977 CESSNA SKYMASTER II T337G/P

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AIRCRAFT SUMMARY
Year: 1977
Type: CESSNA SKYMASTER II T337G/P
Airframe Total Time: 2800 Hours
Engine Times: 10 FWF-FRM / 10 FWF-FRM
Prop Times: 630 / 10


AVIONICS IFCS FD,Hsi,400autopilot
Audio: Garmin 340 w/marker
Nav/com Garmin 430
Nav/com Cessna 400
Loran Northstar/cupeled
Transponder Cessna 400
DME Cessna 400
Intercom Garmin 4 pl w/stereo input jack
Eng monitor JPI 740 twin


OTHER EQUIPMENT Robertson STOL
Strobes
Hot Prop
Outside air temp
Backup altimeter


EXTERIOR Paint Blue/white 2000XTERIOR


INTERIOR Seats Lite Blue/ leather 2000
carpet Lite Grey


ADDITIONAL REMARKS 10 HR. FWF FRM FRONT AND REAR
PROP 630 AND 10

ANNUAL 3/01

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PRICE: $ 198,000


Stephen Brown
979-345-6490 (phone)
Email: stb@Qualityturf.com

[SkyKing]

Another exterior shot....

[SkyKing]

And the panel....

[Bob Cook]

try this one on for size

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/unprotected/specs/11785.html

The oxygen generators needed to be replaced by 01/02. Has boots.

Bob

Good price

[SkyKing]

Bob,

I was looking at this one for a friend, and for the equipment and times... especially the boots & hotplate... this one is really in the ballpark. And I wouldn't let the front engine time be a bother. One could always do a top, if that became an issue. Heck, our '77 has 1225 on the front, and it's still solid!

And in case Jazzman doesn't know it, beginning with the 1976 model year, the rear seats 'float' on the side rails, and they can be stowed against the real firewall for lots of room. Plus, I see this one has a fifth seat.

Overall, a pretty nice bird.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

This looks good. Bet the cranks are not VAR. I would throw out the 400 radios. I love the 400B IFCS autopilot. Mine works greatl. I like the steering bars. Looks like it is IFR approach GPS. Needs new ox generators probably. Glass looks good as well.

rear seats are a plus. It has the l-r tanks.

Wonder what the cost / hr was overall on this bird! hate to think of it.... Best buy that I have seen....


Bob

Bob/SkyKing, either of you familiar with the two P337's Bill Crews has. One is $94.5K, the other $109.5K. The $94.5K with 4200hrs seems like a bargain (that is prior to opening the covers!), and I believe is in CA. Let me know.

[Bob Cook]

You get what you pay for. Sometimes a bargain isn't a bargain.

With both of these they need radios upgrades. A very close scrutiny of the logs are in order along with research on engine's and props.

These do NOT have long range tanks (148) gallons and it is prohibitive to try and add them. One doesn't have the autopilot functional and that could cost 5-6k to fix. A new interior is 8-12K and new paint is 13-15K. Both appear to be "tired". Doubt either have the VAR cranks.

Sometimes high time is better than low time depending on the maintenance. There is another one out in the Channel islands (Calif) for sale but you may want to look closely for corrosion. Same with both of these. Logs tell a lot.

Without looking at the logs closely it is hard for me to comment on them since I have no first hand knowlege.

I have seen people spend 40K to bring one back into reliable shape. It adds up quickly. Here a thorough pre-purchase is in order. It gets frustrating when you buy a new aircraft and it sits in hanger being worked on for two to three months.... Enough said. I have seen a pre-purchase come thru with flying colors and the owner still spent 20k or more immediately after purchase.

enough said

Bob

[rick bell]

buy the best you can, it's way cheaper. most mods and upgrades get discounted up to 50% when sold; whereas when you do it be prepaired to pay full price. (it's like getting instant equity)
rick