engine failure after rotation
 

Two questions:
1) A buddy of mine just returned from initial training in a late model 337. The training stipulated that after rotation to "land the aircraft on loss of an engine if the gear was still down and you had runway remaining to land on". Just writing this down makes it sound like a questionable technique. Would you agree with this?

2) They were also training using zero flap take-off as standard. Does the aircraft not have better climb performance single engine with 1/3 take-off flap setting?
BD
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BMW R65

engine out
 

Question, why would you want to continue flight if you lost engine on rotation and yet can still put it down safely on the runway? In my book, that's the only technique.

Flight instruction 101. With engine out and safe landing can be done...do it!

Jerry
N34EC

Item 1

Yes, the manual makes it clear that in most cases of engine failure at take-off, discontinuing the takeoff is usually the best practice. It's certainly the case if there is adequate runway left to both land and stop the aircraft. Note my emphasis, since I assume that your term "runway remaining to land on" means long enough to stop.

At full gross weight, most Skymasters (certainly the normally aspirated ones) have anemic climb rates on one engine. In a one-engine-out-during-takeoff emergency, with insufficient runway available to land, it is critical to do things in the proper order and do them fast, but without mistakes. My drill is this:

a) Immediately go to best climb speed
b) Identify/verify bad engine
c) Take a second to see if the aux fuel pump fixes the engine*
d) Feather the prop of the bad engine**
e) Close cowl flaps of bad engine

After these steps, you have time to decide other things. The gear up or down is not terribly important (at 90-100 MPH drag with gear locked down is minor, and the extra drag of raising the gear may be counterproductive). Flaps can come up gradually (see item 2 below).

The asterisk on step c) is to identify this as an addition to the manual recommendation. In short, it's my idea. The aux pump may correct a failed mechanical fuel pump or a fuel vapor problem. The double asterisk on step d) is to identify this as a most critical step, because in the frenzy of an emergency it's easy to feather the wrong engine prop -- and then you're doomed. So I practice taking one extra second to absolutely, positively confirm which is the engine prop that needs feathering.

Item 2

The manual makes clear that takeoffs should be with 1/3 flaps. It reduces takeoff distance 10% and gives you a lower (better visibility) attitude on climb. Moreover, the manual also states that on a one-engine-out-during-takeoff emergency the flaps be raised gradually after feathering prop, another indication that 1/3 flaps should be used.

Ernie

P.S. On item 1, I have done both: put it down when I thought there was adequate runway left (I was wrong by 20 yards, with dire financial consequences) and kept flying (doing a go-around) on one engine when there was insufficient runway.

Obviously there can be a lot of variables to this scenario. So let me narrow that a bit.

You have checked take-off performance and the book says " safe flying can be done se"

Should the mindset be that i am going to make a landing out of this if if I havn't raised the gear (that was the deciding factor) or
continiue the take-off, fly the aircraft and execute a landing as soon as practicle.
Thanks for the input.
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Sorry, but I don't understand your question. Simply put, land if there's enough runway, keep going if there isn't. A corollary is this: keep the gear down, as a minimum, until there is no longer enough runway to land.

Ernie

Earnie, thats good stuff. Rotation was based on the book saying the aircraft can climb out on one engine and I can remain clear of terrain. My preferance.
On the other hand I'm not sure I could judge my stopping distance after rotation. Before rotation I would want to know If I had enough runway to abort and stop. Once I lift the nose I'm flying or I should have shut it down. Your experience with this is very helpful.
BD
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637

The book doesn't actually say that about your airplane. In fact, what it gives you is climb rate performance. For a new (read: perfect) aircraft. Flown by a test pilot. You are taking that data and interpreting it to mean that you should keep flying. The book, on the other hand, perhaps recognizing that an older aircraft may have a bit more drag and a bit less engine horsepower, and that the pilot may be a little slow in feathering, tells you that discontinuing the takeoff is usually the best practice. Heed that advice, not the test data.

As to stopping distance, do a simple test. I took my old 337D to a long-runway airport, took it up 50 feet, brought it down and measured how much runway I used from shut-down to stop.

Ernie

Earnie, thanks for the input. Is this a great web site or what! I'm just starting out in the 337 so this is very helpful.
BD
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DC MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

I mean Ernie. Thanks
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HEAD SHOP

About three years ago-
1967 337b
two people on board
less than 1/2 tanks - aircraft has long range tanks
airport at less than 100 ft elevation temp approx. 65 degrees
I had a cylinder seperate on the rear engine. Not a sign of vibration Not enough runway to stop safely
Took off on runway 12 called the tower and told them I had a problem and they asked me what I would like to do. Asked for clearence to land on 07 Left gear down and landed on 07
I did not not shut the engine down it was still producuing power on 5 cylinders . I lost 1 quart of oil Peplaced the piston / ring and cylinder and flew her home.

Frank

Leave the Gear Alone

The book, and several accidents, have conclusively demonstrated that if you are flying single engine, and you cycle the gear, during the time that the gear is cycling, the gear reduces your climb by 250 FPM. Since climb is anemic at best, during the time you are cycling the gear, you will undoubtedly lose altitude.

There was an accident I remember reading about where, right after take off, single engine, the gear was raised. The plane crashed.

So, in the event of an engine failure, leave the gear alone. If you are at altitude, make sure you have plenty of altitude and time to get the gear down. If you are at take off, leave the gear down. If you have runway ahead, land. As kevin has said, it's better to go off the runway straight ahead at 20 MPH, than risk having a second failure.

Dear Sirs,
With regards to an engine failure before getting the gear up.
With the original main gear doors climb rate will reduce to near zero (or perhaps a slow descent) on one engine while the gear is in transit. If the gear doors are remove by way of the RT Aerospace deletion kit this will not be the case, and the climb will be virtually unaffected durring gear retraction. The kit also offers the benefit of a much simpler system and a quicker cycle time (approx half).
Please bear in mind that the flap setting many Pilots use for takeoff is a double edged sword. While is does reduce the takeoff speed and distance it also adds significant drag. This is generally not a factor twin engine, but may make all the difference when single engine. Most manuals for the 336/337 clearly state the reduction in single engine climb rate due to various flap settings.
I installed the Horton STOL kit on my 336 a few years ago, and found the takeoff performance with Zero flaps to be better than it previously was with Takeoff Flaps. Single engine climb for my aircraft also improved 100 Ft/Min under sea level 80 degree conditions (full fuel one pilot).
I believe that the best information available will be obtained by spending an hour or two finding the true performance of your own aircraft under various conditions and configurations.
I for one know that my 336 will takeoff (gross weight 80 degrees sea level) with the either the front or rear engine windmilling and climb at least to 1000 ft AGL at 350 and 250 ft/min respectively.
Good to know when the passengers are the wife and kids.
If any of you get any numbers on this please let us all know
Regards
James T.Grant

rt aerospace door deleation makes all
the difference. after t/o se or me it just
climbs. no lethargic mushing(t/o many summers in flagstaff as 80 degrees @7k, raie the flaps and loose 3-4 100 feet and after the door kit nothing)nice!. flap setting make all the difference. on short fields doing go arounds with full flaps is almost
a desater every time and it take a little time to milk up the flaps. had so many close calls i now raise the flaps as the mains are touching, so when i need to
excellerate i do.

We simulated two engine failures (rear engine) after rotation as follows:
1) we used 1500' msl as the mda
2) max gross
3) No flaps
4) Gear down
5) blue line on climb out
6) 10 degrees C
7) 80 knot rotation speed

This aircraft is a Super Skyrocket with the Horton mod. We averaged 350 to 400 FPM. The gear door mod looks like a good adition.
BD
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FERRARI 212 INTER SPECIFICATIONS

Is the only advantage to the gear mod a better climb out after engine failure?
Why not just keep your gear down until your at a safe altitude?
Don’t you give up some speed in cruse?
Isn’t there more cabin noise in cruse?
Don’t the doors help keep your working parts up in the belly clean?
What is the cost of this mod?
Who dose this mod? Can your A & P do it?

Just some questions that might come up!
Thanks
Cj

Does anyone have a "feel" for the drag comparison on a simulated engine failure vs a featered prop. Are we talking about a big difference or nominal. I would think it would be substantial. Anyway you could really feel the drag by pulling back the throttle to 1900 rpm. Anyone with any experence with this?
BD
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Mercedes-Benz 280 Specifications

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Hey Ernie, what do you think about retarding the power lever on the suspect engine as a last check prior to feather? This might fall between C and D.
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How to roll blunts

Let me start with the first question, on the drag comparison on a simulated engine failure vs a featered prop. I don't quite understand what you're asking, buy I'll take a stab at it. The engine-failure simulation in your POH is after feathering. It gives you a throttle setting which corresponds, for that altitude and after adjusting for temperature, with the drag which that engine would have if it's been shut off and feathered. So, there is no difference in drag between the simulated-engine-out setting and the feathered engine.

On the second question, about retarding the power lever on the suspect engine as a last check prior to feathering, this doesn't fall between C and D -- it's the second part of B. After identifying via the gauges which is the suspect engine, you retard and advance the throttle on that engine to verify. A good reason for doing this before C is that, if one engine's gone bad, you don't want to do anything to the working engine which has even a remote possibility of creating a problem, so I don't want to change the fuel mix in the working engine.

Ernie

Dear Sir,
the climb rate(angle and rate) is better single or twin engine without the gear drag.You do not loose any noticeable cruise speed.No additional noise in cruise flight.
Actually allows easier cleaning and inspection of gear up locks etc.
Sold by RT Aerospace.Easily installed by your A&P. Approx $2500. Link here on the website.
Regards
James T Grant

Note: The J.T. Grant message immediately above contains answers to questions about the RT Aerospace gear-door removal STC, which were posed by Cjo in a message that appears on the first page of this thread.

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HEALTH SHOP

Earnie, the simulated inopeative procedure for some reason is different than what you stated in the Riley Superskyrocket AFM.
It calls for the following:
1) Propeller control - Full High RPM
2) Throttle - Adjust for zero thrust ( per the table on alt and temp)

I felt this simulation induced considerable more drag than a feathered prop and I was wondering if this was technically correct. If so I could look forward to more than the 350 to 400 FPM we experienced. I,m not sure I can take an aircraft 50' feet in the air and abort a take-off and accuratly judge the stopping distance or how much overrun I may have.
However, you give me 50' feet and 400FPM climb and I'm out of there.
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Lovely Wendie

Unless Riley inaccurately (or ultra-conservatively) generated the simulated parameters, there should be the same drag. In short, you're simulating an engine out with feathered prop. Unless you've actually turned an engine off and feathered the prop (and I ssume you haven't, since you're asking these questions), how can you determine that the "simulation induced considerable more drag than a feathered prop"? Twice I've turned an engine off and feathered the prop, and there's a lot of drag. You're not only adding drag, you're also killing half the total thrust you had.

On the issue of total distance required to abort a take-off, I think a combination of a few simple tests in your own airport plus a simple calculation would permit you to get a good estimate. Next time you take-off, time how long it takes from take-off to achieving 50 feet altitude at 100 MPH (call this time T). Next time you land, try to touch down at 10 MPH or so above your normal landing speed (assume this higher-than-normal speed is S+), note the touchdown point, do aggressive braking, note the stopping point, later measure this braking distance B. To estimate total distance, first calculate gliding distance G by figuring out how far the aircraft will glide in time T at an average speed halfway between S+ and 100 MPH, and then add G and B. If your climb after take-off does not exceed 100 MPH (best single-engine speed), going for heigth rather than speed, as the POH recommends, then this total distance should be a pretty good estimate, perhaps conservative because I think T (measured at take-off) is longer than the time it would take you to put it on the runway.

But all of this may be a moot point. I hadn't noticed from the "Aircraft Type" entry on the left margin that you have a Riley Superskyrocket. That may change things. My experience is solely with (and from the outset I indicated that my comments have assumed) a standard, normally aspirated aircraft -- in Miami and the Caribbean, where high temperatures further degrades thrust. With a Riley and/or more moderate temperatures, and especially if your simulated testing shows healthy one-engine climb rates, perhaps the better solution if an engine fails at an altitude of 50 feet after take-off is indeed to keep going.

Ernie

Just a thought on the feathering. I noted significant drag with an engine windmilling and NOT feathered. In fact I decided that feathering the prop of the bad engine is probably the most important item even above nursing flaps up, etc.

Absolutely, it's by far the most important thing. As I said earlier "the gear up or down is not terribly important", it's the feathering -- or better, the feathering of the right engine -- that counts (my emphasis harks back to my concern that in the frenzy of an emergency we not feather the wrong engine).

Ernie

distance to stop
 

I have read all the comments on this thread and find an important aspect no one has mentioned yet. How long is the runway being talked about? One can easily draw the conclusion that if a runway is of a minimum length for your aircraft...say 2500 feet, then after rotation if an engine out should occur, there is no way you are going to land and stop the plane safely and thus a go around is the best thing to do. To try to judge stopping distance when an engine out occurs is the wrong time to do it. That should have be decided before you started the take off.

Also, one lesson to learn here is that it is not good practice to do take offs from intersections! Always...regardless of runway length, use all the runway there is. Runway left behind you is absolutely no good! Folks..don't be shy to use all 10,000 feet of a runway that has 10,000 feet. Almost all the time I take full runway regardless of length and yes, I had sly comments from the tower people once in awhile regarding that practice but remember, they are in the tower and you are in the airplane.

Jerry
N34EC

Jerry, Amen.

Ernie

All of this has been incredable helpful and made me think through this important subject. Thanks to all for the input and a special thanks to Ernie. You are one smart dude and very interesting. Thanks.
BD P.S. I hope others will continue to share their experience and ideas on this.
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Ipad Guide

On the simulated feathering.

The purpose setting the power to the level recommended in the book when simulating feathering is to cause an operating engine to have the same amount of drag as a feathered engine. The power setting listed provides just enough thrust so that the engine is not dragging from windmilling, and also not providing any thrust - just like a feathered engine.

Hope that helps.

Kevin

engine failuire on takeoff
 

I'm late to this discussion, but: There shouldn't be any requirement for judging landing distance when an engine quits just after rotation but before gear retraction, that decision should have been made before the throttles were advanced in the first place. You should know takeoff distance and abort requirements before attempting takeoff. As Ernie says, the data is all in the book, and it's based on best case, so feel free to establish your personal minimums by adding your required fudge factor, 10% for example. I also recite required engine failure actions before taking the runway, every runway.....Most aircraft I have flown would land if the engine(s) failed while the gear was down. You might determine a runway length where, when an engine quits, and the gear is still down, you can land, and keep that figure in mind, especially as it applies to your home drome.....