Anyone have EI CGR engine instruments?
 

We are looking at replacing our engine instruments with the EI CGR TWIN PRIMARY PREMIUM package. We will do a field approval since it's not on the list. Wondering if anyone else has already done this? If so, any chance you have a picture of it installed and/or the Field approval? It would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Tripp

I opted for the EI-MVP50P, if you want a pic that install, let me know.

Rick

If you have a photo easily available I’d love to see it.

Thanks.

Here ya go ...

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Apiok8NRRsL6nMc3qYVHrYeFFCddPg

Nice!

The upper one has an "unsafe" light and the lower has a hydraulic pump light.

How are those connected? I'd guess your unsafe light would be extinguished if you're on the ground.

The "HYD PUMP" light indicates when there is power being applied to the pump motor. If the amber gear up light or the green gear down light is illuminated and the hydraulic pump is energized, the gear doors are open (or in transit).

I still have a couple configuration issues to work out, this is one of them. Yes, the "UNSAFE" light should be extinguished when on the ground. The "UNSAFE" light will illuminate when either of the throttles are retarded with the gear not down, or when there is no power on either the gear up or the gear down panel indicator lights (or gear is in transit).

This is a picture of the System pages of the MVP displays. System pages for the MVP-50P

There are gear down and locked annunciators for nose gear and right gear. Since they are wired in series (nose, right, left) to get to the green down and locked light on the panel, I will be able to see downline as far as the circuit is completed.

Since you are looking at the CGR-30, here is a picture of a CGR-30 install in a friend's C-340.
EI-CGR30 installation in a C-340

Thanks for both pics. It's really helpful. Is there an STC for your instruments or did you have to do a field approval?

You're very welcome. The MVP-50P is STC'd with an AML listing for my plane.

What all gauges is this unit legally able to replace?

TACH
FF
Oil Pressure
Oil Temp
Fuel qty
CHTs
????

Rick,

Do you remember if you needed the 20ft cable for those? Also, what fuel sensors do you have with it?

Thanks,

Tripp

I’ve been considering the GI-275 as EIS option from Garmin.

Has anyone done the math on cost for all these to replace all primary functions?

GI275 x3
MVP-50 x2
CGR 30P x2 (x3?)
EDM 960


Anyone consider CIES fuel senders?

Mark,

The MVP-50P is a certified replacement for all engine, fuel, and electrical instrumentation.

It's not certified for removal of the pressurization instrumentation nor for landing gear position indications, although I've duplicated those original indications in the MVP-50P boxes.

Tripp,

I did not order extra length cables with the units. I think I recall asking them about that and their reply was that the cables I need come with the units.

I am using the original PennyCap fuel sensors ... I hope! We will be doing the fuel calibration in the next week or two. EI said they should work fine ...

Rick,

Do you recall what it cost to have the panel recut to fit the 50's?
We are really going back and forth over whether to use 50's or 30's and what the real total cost of each would be. Any pricing info you have would be really helpful. You could email me directly at TXSOCCERREF@GMAIL.COM

Thanks,

Tripp

Thanks to Rick Erwin for sharing his MVP-50 photo.

I'm planning the same installation in the April timeframe. I was investigating JPI EDM900, EMD960, and the CGR-30P. JPI doesn't allow two EDM900 for twins, and for me the EDM960 feels to clutter, plus I wanted to separate my engine monitors for each engine. I considered the CGR-30P, but for a few issues.
1. No STC (it would have to be done with a field approval, not a show stopper).
2. I kept adding up all the gauges I wanted to replace and ended up 1 or 2 short.
3. I didn't see a separation between my aux tanks and main tanks. It seems it was adding up both for a fuel remaining reading.
4. My most important reason was there was gauges on different pages and I didn't see a way to place it in a scan mode between the different pages. I.E. the fuel remaining is on a different page, it seemed I would have to manually toggle through the pages to see it. The MVP-50 has everything I can glace at without any page cycling.

Karl

You're welcome Karl.

I went through the same considerations myself, then finally zeroing in on the MVP-50P ... it's just so capable.

To maximize your installation, it really pays dividends to fully understand ALL its capabilities so you can get it configured with the sensors you want, and the screens laid out just the way you want them.

Rick

Did the cables sent with your mvp 50 allow you to put the junction box or edc or something like that in various places? Where did you mount it ? I bought the mvps 50s for my plane, is there anything that you wise you would have added or changed if you could reconfigure yours ?

I do not recall having to order longer cables, I asked EI about the longer cables to accommodate the rear engine and they said the system would come with the cables I need.

The rear engine EDC is in the cabin ceiling forward of the aft pressure bulkhead, aft on my ELT, on the right side. The front EDC is behind the co-pilot's panel on a fabricated plate that is mounted on the sidewall.

I used all the inputs available to the EDCs. If I would have had one more input, I would have added a hydraulic pressure readout.

Is your plane turbocharged or pressurized? If so, there are several things you will need and some that you might want to allow for. With the addition of some optional sensors, you can enable some additional functions that don't use any of the EDC input channels.

Rick

EI Product
 

We went with the EI Product for the 58C a 73 P version.

We can send all then details we went with going back and fourth with EI if that’s helpful!

For Rick do have pics of how the install went in 337K?

Any learning curves on the install / post install?

Thanks

I have some pictures... I’ll try to get an album put together in the next few days and place a link here ...

Thanks Rick
My skymaster is a 75 g model non pressurized non Turbocharged and is fixed gear so will not need any gear or pressurized inputs. I ask Ei if the heads would accompany those things in the event something happens to my plane if it would transfer to another one and these said yes it could be added to another plane later with those specifications

I just posted the pictures under a new thread for the MVP-50P.

I've had a pleasant experience in working with the folks from EI. They have been very accommodating.

After the airplane is flying again, I'll just need to send them the configuration files for them to make a couple of changes, re-install the new files, and I think I'll be done.

Rick

That's good to know. All the limitations expressed in the EI instrument would HAVE to be exactly the same for a different airplane, otherwise you'd have to send them your configuration files and they would have to update them for you. I don't think that would be a big deal though.

Rick

We have both engines off and I’m assuming you pulled all the old wires out, I am going to do a new weight and balance on mine, we will rent some scales and get a new weight on 504. How did you determine the weight difference after your install?

Yes, we pulled all the old wires out.

My IA has the scales and ramps to do the re-weigh, once we are at the point we can put the interior back in.

One thing to think ahead about is ... if you are going have new electronic engine instrumentation that includes a fuel quantity indication is: You will need to calibrate the new fuel indication system with the tanks incrementally from empty through full, but the airplane will need to be weighed while empty. So, try to weight it before you do the fuel calibration, otherwise you'll have up to 30 5-gallon buckets of fuel sitting around.

To Rick,

I'm getting closer to purchasing my MVP-50's. EI said they might have a rebate program in place around Sun-n-Fun in April, so I'm targeting that time. I would appreciate if you could answer 2 questions since you already bought one.

1. I noticed on your picture, you have an ALT1, ALT2, BATT, and BUS. My Skymaster has a switch that changes from REG1, REG2, and BATT. I guess that is for the pilot to switch since there is originally only one Volt meter. Did you remove that switch and this is how your system looks at the voltage pickups.

2. Did you use the EI P-300M fuel sensors. My mechanic recommend a fuel sensor, but it's twice as much as the EI sensors. I just wanted to know if you bought those, if you are satisfied with the sensor.

Thanks for any help,

Karl

Hi Karl,

1. I did not have that switch, and I had a single voltmeter that read bus voltage. I wanted to be able to see the various voltages to know what’s going on with the electrical system, so that’s how I designed the layout and configuration.

2. I used the EI fuel sensors recommended for my installation. I have yet to fly the plane, but my IA has run the engines and said everything was working fine.

I hope this helps.

Rick

Yes, it does.

Thanks

Just FYI - - I've got some FAA airworthiness guys working with DER/DAR at EI to get the EI CGR-30P approved for skymasters. Eventually, EI wants the 337 on the AML for the CGR-30P combo STC. No word yet on completion dates for the project, but EI is working on it.

** July 2021 Edit: My FAA airworthiness guys are telling me that their position is "Non-STC'd engine instrumentation is not eligible for Field Approval, any any request would have to be forwarded to the Airworthiness Certification Office for Evaluation", per their job aid . Specifically, Row D.13k or D.13t requires either a STC or an EVL (at the ACO). Bottom line for me: Until EI gets the CGR-30 added to the AML, it's a no-go. I'm now really thinking JPI-960.

My cluster gauge is on its way out the door (bad CHT gauges and senders with no replacement available, cracked glass, etc) so I am going to do the cluster replacement with my 73G model first. I talked to Blake from EI and he confirmed that I could do that and install two EDC units, one for each engine, then install the other instruments later. Still needs a field approval, so when I get some clarity on that I'll post back.

Who were you speaking with at EI? I have cash in hand if they come up with and STC for the CGR-30P Combo. I've looked into doing a field approval, but it'll add at least $3000 to the cost of the system which would cause me to go a different direction. I would much rather have the CGR30 system.

I last spoke with EI in early April 2021 when they advertised a sale for Sun-N-Fun. The process for an individual field approval engineering and adding the aircraft to the AML is nearly identical on their end, so they're opting to get the CGR-30P & CGR-30C approved for the 336/337 and added to the STC AML. I was assured it was "upcoming" on their list, and we'd see them complete their work "soon"--then a bit longer for FAA approval. I came away from the conversation with the impression it'll be a reality this calendar year, and maybe as early as summertime. I am ready to order the day they tell me we got on the AML. So, I remain optimistic.

Have you decided on the configuration you're looking for (functions, etc.)? The order form is pretty detailed and offers lots of interesting options!

I'll send them a note expressing my hope that they are working to add the Skymaster to the AML, in the hopes that it continues the momentum that seems to be there. I did look through the options, but there are SO MANY that I'm really going to dedicate time to work through all of it. I'd love to hear how you plan to set things up.

I have no idea (yet)...was hoping to glean some good ideas from you! :D

Here is the very encouraging reply from EI:
---------------
We are currently working with the FAA on a two other projects, we anticipate these projects to be completed within a month or two. Once these projects are completed we will be moving forward with the CGR-30P/C AML update to include the Skymaster. Working with the FAA has slowed down a little bit, due to COVID, but I hope to have the updated AML before the end of this year.

Please feel free to check back with us in about two months to get an update. Hopefully we will know more by then.
Thank you.


Mac S. Speed
Electronics International Inc.
---------------------
I'll let you know if I start to figure out our config!

How many gallons in each tank
 

I have a 1975 337G with the long range tanks. I'm putting in the EI CGR-30's and I have the total fuel, but does anyone know how many gallons are in each tank on this model? I know the Aux feeds the Mains directly, but I'm told we have 4 fuel sensors, so I need to know how many gallons are in the Aux side and how many in the main.

Thanks,

Tripp

The senders for yours are essentially wired in parallel (via the conditioner box) because the tanks are plumbed together. The multiple sensors are used to determine fuel level when the wing isn’t level and the fuel moves toward one side or the other. You shouldn’t need the capacity of the aux at all. Give EI a call and they will walk you through it but only specify two tanks total for your order.

Thanks, that makes a lot more sense to me, but I am not mechanical at all. I'll just specify the 2 tanks and I assume the wiring will tap into the conditioner box for the value. Appreciate the help

I spoke with EI about a similar question. On our 337D, the mains and aux are separate, so there will be separate displays for the main/aux. However, the mains actually have two tanks on each side and two senders for each side (6 senders total if you include the aux tanks). EI said that you will need a sender for each physical tank and they will provide an extra interface free of charge to combine all of the signals from each sender (so in my case for the mains) into on signal that will go to the CGR30 EDC. Given this, I'd say you would just need total usable per side.

June 2021 Update on EI CGR-30
 

All,
I got an email similar to the one above in June.

June 2021 Update on progress:
I am less enthusiastic about equipping with CGR-30 this year. I started inquiries with EI in prep for annual last December, and as of June 2021--they've not even sent in the AML update paperwork yet. In anticipation of such a delay, I asked my FSDO about the field approval process--and they wouldn't even consider it. My FSDO sent this:

"It is indicated in the Major Repair alteration job aid provided in the attached Advisory circular 43-210A CHG 1, that for Major Repair /Alteration Approval in the Normal, Utility, Acrobatic, and Commuter Category Airplanes; regarding; avionics; installation (element) D.13k (description) Electronic flight instrument systems (EFIS) that display primary flight information to meet regulatory operating requirements. (Classification) STC
Noting the element and the classification that is proposed, the installation is not within the scope of a FSDO ASI to accept, based on the information provide. It is recommended to apply for a STC or seek out an existing approved STC installation for the Cessna Aircraft model 337G."

--Translation: I asked the question wrongly...or failed to provide the right information...or it's a no-go until AML is updated...

Note: I did not mention that other Skymaster owners were attempting CGR-30 field approvals, and getting better results that I got. YMMV. If anyone gets CGR-30 field approval, would you please post your "approved data" so others can try?

Here's the list of what's out there now (only EIS-TXI requires dealer install):

Unit STC? Est. Base Cost Notes
EI CGR-30* NO $12180 Fits current panel
EI MVP-50 YES $14580 panel mod
JPI EDM960 YES $15590 panel mod
GI-275 EIS NO** $10600 Interface with FS210 & Garmin Pilot
EIS-TXI* NO** $16885 alone or + $9480 with G-500Txi installation

Insight G4 YES $5500 Twin G4 can replace EGT/CHT only

*Both Garmin and EI say they're working on AML updates to include C-337 aircraft, but apparently, these are slow processes, and completion of such projects in 2021 for 2022 installations is a "maybe."

** I spoke to a friendly Garmin dealer about self-installing GI-275 as EIS. No problem, says he...let's just double-check the limitations section of the installation manual...lo and behold, there is a limitation that states "Do not install as EIS in centerline-thrust aircraft" Turns out, the SAME limitation exists in the Garmin EIS TXI installation manual. So, even though the Skymaster is on the STC/AML for these units...they still cannot be installed in a Skymaster as EIS. And, my friendly FSDO guy says to install a non-STC EIS system takes an Engineering Eval at the Wichita ACO...so you need to hire a DER to write up an approval package for the ACO, which will cost plenty, and then wait a couple years to see if it's approved.

--Since engine indication/monitoring is a priority for me, I'm now leaning towards the JPI EDM-960. Anyone know how much we can get for a kidney these days?

--LJ