Should I get an old 337?
 

Hi.

New forum member here, veteran lurker. I come bearing questions...

Not rich. Mostly flown Cessna singles. Always fancied a 336/337. Could probably afford an early model, A, B or C with basic avionics. Could hopefully afford upkeep and slight upgrade in avionics as I go along, but don't want to splash for it straight out of the gate.

1. What's the deal with this SID/AD thing in simple terms? Would it affect me as a non-commercial, private owner?

2. Will it mean that the prices of these aircraft is going to come down more?

3. I quite often see early 337's at or below $30K - how bad an idea is this to get? Considering I like to pay as I go and upgrade and don't want to pay for someone else's idea of the perfect avionics package etc, this seems tempting.

4. Can I get long range tanks retrofitted if the aircraft doesn't have it? Are there any of those baggage fuel tanks that transfer fuel to mains available for the Skymaster that you can get for the Cessna singles? If they exist, are they STC'd?

Last question I'm asking because I live in the US at the moment, but as a cinematographer often spend long periods in Europe and would perhaps want to have the plane flown over (not by me until I have my IR and grow a pair) should I have a long stint there so I can do some local touring (I have both JAA and FAA licenses). It'd be nice to have whoever flies it over to be able to do it without ferry tanks, that's why I'm asking.

Thanks.

I think a decent 337 will probably cost at least $60g's, and close to $100g's for a good one. You can of course pay that a couple of ways.
1) $30,000- buy in, then spend $50,000-70,000+/- over the 6-12 months that the plane is being brought up to speed
2) Pay for a good plane in the beginning,and start using it the day you buy it.

I would not recommend buying any airplane where you go into it on a tight budget. The Skymaster is a great machine but it has to be kept in shape. I second Roger. Pay up front or pay later, but either way, you're gonna pay. I spend $30 to $35 thousand per year for hanger, insurance, gas, and maintenance to fly my 1973 337G (no-turbo) 100 hours. It has been that way since I bought the plane in 2002. That works out to $300 to $350 an hour, which seems reasonable to me to have my own beautiful Skymaster waiting for me whenever I want it. Unless you have access to free or very reduced labor costs, I really do not see how these planes could be operated for less.

Good Luck!

Ed

Thanks for the info.

$30K a year is a little bit steeper than I'd hoped for, but something I could afford. Do other forum members have roughly the same figures?

I am sorry, but because my wife also reads this site, I refuse to admit how much it costs to operate my aircraft :)

Tanks
 

You don't need long range tanks to go to Europe. The longest distance, via the northern route, is a little over 600 miles. However, pay attention to the note that says insulate the breather tube. It would be easy to speculate that uninsulated breather tube brought down the plane that is sitting in the bottom of the ocean.

If you want to go the route of St.Johns to the Azores, you need a ferry tank, in the cabin. You also need an HF radio. Most ferry pilots will take the northern route.

You can probably buy an aircraft for 30K, and then spend 60K on engines, and 20K on props, pretty easily. Most of the lower priced airplanes have high time engines.
Avionics can easily run another 60K. If you want a new paint job and interior, check with Herb on that cost, but it isn't cheap.

I would suggest that you search for an airplane that has mid-time engines. Have a thorough pre-buy done on it. Look at your wallet, because you can plan on 7K for insurance the first year, provided they will write it. I think an IR would be required by most companies these days. Fuel burn, for normally aspirated, will run 22GPH. An inexpensive annual will be 3K. I had an annual that cost me 12K.

The costs add up, and in a hurry.

Hahahaha....Roger, you are a funny, funny guy. I'm laughing so hard, my sides hurt. :o)

Insurance
 

I remember reading that while most US insurance companies write polices for 1MM liability, in Europe, it is required that you have 2MM liability.

The SIDS, by and large, are just things that should be paid extra attention to during the annual. The wing pull shouldn't affect part 91 operators of US registered aircraft. There are some who think that insurance companies will require SID compliance. If the crash in New Jersey taught us anything, it is that the wing pull is not necessary. The wing to fuselage junction, as well as the strut, remained pretty much intact, even though the wing had failed.

I still want one:)

I've had my eyes open for a 336 as I thought that would be a nice entry, but they're far and few between, unfortunately. Someone said they have this SID even worse somehow and need a more thorough examination. Is this true?

The entire production run of 336's was something like 192 units, so they will be rarer to find than a 1965-1967 vintage 337.
The handling characteristics are different on the 336 vs the 337. The angle of incidence is different and the front cowling shape is different, so your sight picture is going to be different.

I'll second that. We fly a 336 on our marine survey, occasionally interspersed with a 337. The sight picture difference is striking, especially at the speeds we use on the survey tracks. 100 knots is the target ground (or over-the-water) speed; to maintain that going downwind, the nose is honked up to where you can barely see over it.

Back to the question at hand: the 336 is the perfect airplane for low, slow survey work or sightseeing, but if I wanted an airplane to actually go somewhere, I'd get a 337.

Ahab

Something to keep in mind when searching for the right aircraft. The bargains out there are only going to help with the initial burden. There are Skymasters out there for lower prices and there is a reason for that. You have to be really careful with this category of aircraft. It's not like fixing up a 172 or Cherokee. This is a complex, twin engine aircraft. So that said beware of the fixer uppers. They will eat you alive in repairs and maintenance. Take your time in this kind of a decision and if you can't afford the one you want (or need) save your money over time to purchase the right aircraft. They will be out there when you are ready. With the economy, today is a buyers market. Someone that invested $50K in avionics 24 months ago is only going to make $20-30K back (if that) depending on the package that was installed. If you go out and have a shop install that package it will cost you at least $50K today. So in today's market you are better to buy an aircraft that has what you want (need) on it already than to upgrade it yourself.

The only difference in the scenario above would be if you had some source available to save a lot of money by buying a fixer upper. Like if you were an A&P you could save some serious money doing it yourself. Now you have to have the time (time is money) and the patience to perform all the work. Again, this is not a 172 project. The other issue I see to buying a fixer upper is the condition of the aircraft. There is a reason that the airplane is selling so low. The worst and hardest condition on a complex aircraft like a Skymaster is non-use, non-hangered, poor and neglected maintenance. Those are the conditions that will eat you alive.

Just my thoughts

Stop dreaming and start flying. So my answer is yes....get an older Skymaster and start flying now.

I'll also recommend spending the extra money up front. I just went through this process. After I purchased my Skymaster I had over 300 hrs. of labor invested into it. Then add in the cost of boost pumps, fuel quantity transmitters, fuel cap upgrades, alternator repair, magneto inspections, engine hoses, hydraulic hoses, seat belts, the list can go on and on, it can get very expensive.

Then, chances are these also need to be done. Interior, say 3000.00-4000.00, paint 12000-15000, engines approx. 30000-35000 ea., props, if they can be overhauled, around 2200 ea., avionics limitless. These are all ballpark figures, but I think they are reasonable.

Add these up and it easy to see your better off to buy one that's turn key.

...not including the paint, these are approx. on parts only, not installation.

I hear ya all and I'm taking it in.

But in the 70-100K range, I'll have to wait another 2 years to have that kind of money saved in cash, and where's the fun in that?:D

To be honest, I've mostly flown steam gauge aircraft and am happy doing that. No need for a fancy panel. And a shiny paint job or a cream leather interior isn't the most important thing either. However, safety and reliability of the engines, electrics and hydraulics is important, of course. So if that's achievable at this price level or slightly higher, then that would be interesting.

Two follow-up questions:

1. In your experience, do the engines run much past TBO?

2. Is the 5000hr wing AD something that's quite expensive (as if anything involving aviation isn't)?

Thanks again.

I hear what you're saying. I bought my 1966 Cessna 337A for about 45K. I knew I would have to fix it up, but I figured I could fly it while fixing it up. What I've found is that I've put about 10K per year in it over the past three years. I had to troubleshoot the systems and had various other small problems fixed. The good thing about that is that I learned about the aircraft systems and how they work. I've flow it around the area, taken some people back into the Rocky Mountains, and flew cross country to California. My aircraft systems are all working now, although its aesthetics leave much to be desired. I'll fix that in time.

As everyone is saying, if you buy at a low price, you're probably going to end up fixing a lot. Be prepared for problems to manifest themselves for sometime. The more you fly it, the more you shake out the problems. I found it is expensive to fix aircraft components and it seems to take forever to get fixes done.

Now that I've had many of the systems fixed, I'm glad I made the purchase. Although, I admit, I cursed at my airplane a lot over the past three years. If I had to wait another 3 years to save the money to buy a more up to date aircraft, I would have lost interest and continued renting or bought a less complex single engine aircraft.

Karl

I am not a proponent of buying an airplane that stretches your budget. When money gets in the way of necessary repairs and maintenance, you are playing with fire. This doesn't just go for Skymasters, it is for all aircraft.

If you buy a beat up Skymaster, your dollars will be going to not only maintenance and repairs, but also you indicate that you plan on various upgrades. Those items may eat you alive, and or cause thing to "not get done".

Better to know up front your deamons, then just keep findng them and putting them off. These are not cheap aircraft to keep in "prefect" order, and especially not cheap to get them there once they have fallen victim to disrepair.

Been away for a week.

There is a whole "sticky" thread for those considering buying a 337 -- make sure you read it.

In the earlier responses no one is suggesting a middle road. Such a thing can be found. It's a well maintained 337 in the $60s to $70s with all ADs done, with mid-time engines (and with good compression and oil chemical analyses consistently in the "normal" range), but with older avionics and average-or-worse interiors and paint. Just be patient.

It took me many months to find my second 337, which I bought in the low $70s seven years ago. It had been meticulously maintained by the Ohio State University FBO (the same people who maintain the University's fleet of trainers) for an owner who used the airplane in his business. Interior was below average, exterior above average. The owner had installed avionics upgrades which I simply refused to pay for (told him to yank them out, but he didn't). It can be done.

Ernie

Buy IT
 

Times a wasting
You want a plane, go buy one. Can't find what you want, keep looking, it'll show up sooner rather than later, as long as your looking. Don't look, you wont find it.

Barnstormers has 1 listed
heres another
http://www.skymaster.com/aircraft.asp?control=40

Tbo
 

The hours on these engines of the plane for sale should answer the question someone had re. will they make TBO?

What about the 5000 hr AD? I can't find anything about it in the sticky.

EDIT. Sorry, found a separate thread about the subject. Doesn't seem like a biggie.

Check out 66 337 under flyinjb in aircraft for sale 1900+ tt 4/10 annual call 217 -732- 2605 for engine times mid time i think ? can be had for around 60's ready to get in and fly away. Great plane, excellent paint, good interior, updated radios ,update front 102 SOH rear 812 SOH

Turbo-System Super Skymaster
 

I would recommend focusing on airframes, engines, and avionics. Paint & interior will not get you up or down, and can be upgraded at your pace and budget. I also believe that if you study the performance charts, you might choose (Like me) to only go with a Turbo model. The turbos were first installed on the "C" models in 1967. Also, do not buy a Skymaster thinking that they are inexpensive to maintain. They are complex, and finding a IA that really knows them can be pricey...But, I would not ever fly anything else. Once you get comfortable in a skymaster, you will understand. The reason they are so safe, is that right off the runway (again I mention the Turbos) you blast through single engine Vx & Vy. So with a Turbo System Super Skymaster, there is no "Critical" time to lose an engine. I am happy to fix any "Airworthy" problem, because that means that I caught it on the ground, and I will not put a price on the safety of my passengers or myself. I am befuddled why pilots,(most are kinda smart) do not flock to them....JIM

Can I ask another question?

As a low time pilot working on my instrument ticket - could I get insurance if I bought one before I completed the ticket? Ad how much ballpark are we talking about?

Depends on hull value. Figure aprox $3500- for a $150,000 hull. An instrument ticket saves you about 10%.

In my case I could not get insurance without an instrument rating, despite trying virtually all sources.

That was 10 years ago, with low times like you. I had good reasons for not wanting to get an instrument rating*, so I simply self-insured (i.e., don't carry insurance).

Ernie



__________________
* Because I had just retired and all my flying was going to be done in good weather; because in Florida IMC is virtually always thunderstorms, not benign conditions like lake-effect fog; and because I was already experienced in flying in IMC, having accumulated thousands of hours in IMC on simulators over many years before I took flight lessons.

My insurance last year was $2446 for a $90,000 hull, $1,000,000 liability with the standard $100,000/person restriction. I have about 2300TT and about 600TT in C337 with instrument rating. My insurance has been dropping every year by about $100 to $150 since I purchased the airplane in 2002 with no time in type and 15 hours total multi-engine time when I started.

Ed