IFR Ticket
 

I am transiting from a 182 to a Skymaster. I am currently IFR rated. Will I need to take another IFR check ride for center thrust?

Hhhmmm
 

Do you have a multi-engine airplane rating on your certificate? If not, then you cannot 'transition' from the single-engine 182 to the multi-engine CLT 337 and the IFR rating is immaterial.

If you DO have an IFR rating and a ME rating, then no... unless your insurance company requires something in its fine print. However, since you'll now be managing two engines nstead of one, with different protocols and a much heavier aircraft, it might not be a bad idea to get some DUAL IFR instruction, as a refresher, in the 337. Provided you have the ME or CLT rating.

SkyKing

Interesting ..... There are SO many interpretations on this requirement - that I find myself very confused about what is really required for ME Instrument in the 337... As you read this, keep in mind, that I am a conventional multi licensed pilot, (no CLT limitation) but don't care, nor have any desire to fly a conventional twin in instrument conditions - only my 337... Since I fly a 337 exclusively - I think it would be way to risky to try to keep proficient in a conventional --- It's not worth the risk to me...

Since I am a ME Rated pilot, without an instrument ticket... Then can I take my instrument training in my 337 from a CFI who does not have the Multi Engine Instument Rating? (IE: Single Engine Instrument Instructor only)

I am having trouble finding an instructor with MEI... Maybe I don't need one??

It would seem reasonable that if a SE Instrument Pilot that can get an ME rating in 337, and instantly use his SEI instrument ticket in the 337, then.....

I should be able to get my instrument ticket in a 337 from a single engine instrument rated instructor?? If this is NOT the case, then would it be better to go take my instument in a 182/172 - then just use it in my 337??

What are your thoughts on this SkyKing?

Category and Class distinctions... KEY!
 

As far as obtaining the instrument rating on your airplane, multi-engine land (private or commercial) certificate, instructors are certified as to the class rating, i.e., if you're obtaining the instrument rating in a single-engine airplane, the instructor need only have an airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating. However, for a 337, while designated a 'CLT' airplane in FAA jargon, it nevertheless is a multi-engine airplane, and therefore, to obtain your instrument rating in your 337 you will need a ME rated instrument instructor. Bottom line is that the pilot certificate must be appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which the instrument training is being provided. See, e.g., FAR 61.195 et seq. As a further requirement, the flight instructor in the ME airplane must have at least 5-hours PIC time in the specific make and model of multi-engine aircraft. You'll find that requirement in FAR 61.195(f).

What you could do, if you have a flight instructor friend with only single-engine proficiency/ratings, is to let him obtain his ME/CLT in your airplane + the 5 hours PIC and then he could instruct in your airplane... maybe you could hornswaggle a trade for time or something.

Good luck!

SkyKing

One other thought... since you own/fly a 337, my personal opinion is that it would be better for you to obtain the instrument rating in your airplane, since you're familiar with it and its operation. But for darn sure, I'd get that instrument ticket!!!

SkyKing

I was, am a conventional ME pilot, VFR only, when I bought the skymaster. After getting it, I connected with a CFI-MEI, and took my training in the 337. Exclusively, there was no simulator time for me. At the time of the checkride, there was some difficulty getting a DPE who could check me out. When he wrote my instrument ticket, it was MEI, CLT. That got bounced, and I ended up with MEI, no restriction, because I was already conventional ME.

Pat,

I would strongly recommend you get your instrument rating in your 337, and that you do in fact get one. Getting the rating in the 337 will give you practice at operating that particular airplane in the clouds, which is valuable both for knowing how to do it, and for confidence (which reduces stress) in the clouds.

Kevin

Getting my Instrument rating has always been the plan, but finding someone who can instruct in my plane has turned out the be the problem. I do have a CFI friend, who has flown with me countless times in the 337... In fact, he often comes with, as my safety pilot.

The problem has been that he cannot use my plane for his checkout - due to my insurance restrictions.

See the dilemna here?? I absolutely do not want to take my instrument training in someone else's conventional Multi... both due to cost, and lack of availability in this area.

When you mentioned that someone who has a SE Instrument could get the ME rating and begin using the instrument.... It sounded like a possible solution to my problem. I do have access to my old 182, and could use it to finish my instrument ticket and checkride if that instrument rating could be used in my 337.

If you come to EYW in May, I'll be glad to talk to you about inadvertent VFR flight into IMC.

Call Scott Smith, www.skysmith.com and talk to him. He's in IA, knows lots of people. Used to publish a skmaster newsletter. Speaks at our gatherings.

Problem solver...
 

Pat,

It sounds like you might need that old thing we call 'The Mother of Invention' about now. BE CREATIVE... on your own!

Your ONLY 'dilemma' appears to be "The problem has been that he cannot use my plane for his checkout - due to my insurance restrictions."

Well, then, get rid of the skyscaper builder or, if that's not possible due to a bank's involvement, simply ADD a temporary rider to your policy and pay the additional premium just for the time it takes your guy to get his ME ticket in your bird, then cancel the rider. Problem solved!

SkyKing

Prior to acquiring a C337 I had single engine land & instrument airplane ratings. My ME training and checkride was in the 337 resulting in a CLT restriction. The ME check ride could be taken either VFR or IFR, if VFR then a VFR only restriction would have been added. If you demonstrate instrument proficieny, then no restriction. I do not see why Pat could not obtain his instrument rating SE, then use his CFII to come up to speed in the 337. Your ticket then reads SE Land, ME Land, Instrument Airplane. It's not apparent to me what would trigger another ME checkride but the worst case would be to retake the ME checkride IFR which would probably result in an IFR CLT restriction which he has said would not be a problem. Just my uneducated observation, for what its worth.

Steve,

Regarding your statement "Your ticket then reads SE Land, ME Land, Instrument Airplane," if you don't pass the IFR part of the ME Practical test, then you'll get a "VFR-Only" limitation on the Multiengine endorsement.

Consider this: if it were as you say, then *nobody* would ever have to pass the IFR part of the ME test.

I was one of those SE IFR, ME VFR pilots when I bought my current T337B. I didn't want the CLT restriction, so I went to one of the "weekend" flight schools on the border between California and Nevada, spent a Saturday, and got the conventional twin IFR add-on. It only cost me about $500, and the training was good and it was fun to do. So I never have to worry about the regulatory side of MEI. OTOH, being current in some other model would take some updating, and then there's always the insurance side of things, which ends up being as much of a matter to consider (if not more) as anything else

It's somewhat of a backdoor approach when one has a ME rating prior to an Inst. rating. I think most of us just take the ME checkride IFR and be done with it. Perhaps my previous post was misunderstood. It's, of course, the VFR restriction on his present ME rating which necessitates Pat's new ME checkride. I don't believe that Kevin and Paul and I are suggesting conflicting ideas. If Pat obtains his instrument rating SE or at least trains to instrument proficiency in the 182 which he has available then retakes has ME checkride either in his 337 resulting in a CLT restriction or in a conventional on a "weekend upgrade" he avoids spending so much expensive ME time learning the basics of IFR flight in a ME airplane with a ME CFII.

As I recall, you just have to go back and do one approach with an engine shut down (or zero thrust) to get the multi added on to your instrument rating.

MEI
 

I recently went through all of this, so it is fairly fresh in my mind. My situation was somewhat different, however. I was just a fresh Single Engine Private pilot with the goal of getting rated (and insured) in my dad's P-Skymaster. I looked at several ways of doing it. Common sense suggested that I do as much of my training as possible in the Skymaster, and use it for the check-rides. This would give me a lot of experience in the plane I intended to fly so that, by the time I got the ratings, I would be really proficient. Of course, common sense, the FAA and the Insurance industry don't mix very well.

I ended up making a deal with a friend to use his Warrior to do my instrument rating, then I did the multi with ATC (conventional multi) and took the VFR and IFR portions of the check-ride in one flight.

This is the most economical way to go for someone who has neither the instrument nor the multi, because it saves you one check ride (you kill the multi and the multi-instrument with one stone). There is also a significant practical benefit to doing your Instrument in a low performance non-complex single with minimal gadgetry. The IFR check ride can be fairly demanding, and moseying along in a 172 or a Warrior gives you a lot more time to think. Also, you don't have to demonstrate proficiency with any complex systems that aren't installed in the airplane (I just had dual nav-coms, no ADF, and no GPS). This is about the minimum to get in the required types of approaches.

If you already have your multi, regardless of whether it is limited to CLT or not, you have two options. Option 1 is do your instrument training in a single, then take an abreviated multi check ride, limited to those portions required to add on the instrument rating (as the previous poster said, it's not much. Just an engine out approach or two is about it. Check the PTS). You may need an extra few hours of dual before you go do the multi portion - I can't recall for sure. But you could use the dual time to get back up to speed in a conventional twin, if you didn't want the CLT restriction on the instrument add-on.

The second option is to do the entire instrument in a multi-engine airplane. While this is theoretically possible, I was strongly discouraged by my instructor and by my designated examiner from going this route. The first problem is, you end up with an instrument rating limited to multi-engine, and if you want to fly a single under IFR, you still have to go back and do the instrument portion of the single engine IFR check ride. I know it's crazy, but that's the way it is. The second problem is the aformentioned difficulty of flying to PTS standards in a much faster, more complex, airplane - remember, in this case, you have to do ALL of the IFR stuff in the multi-engine airplane, not just a couple of approaches.

That said, I can certainly see the "real world" benefit of doing all of your instrument training in your own airplane. I guess it depends on what your comfort level is with the airplane already. If you need the extra time in type, and don't mind bearing the higher operating cost, I could see a good argument for doing a good portion of the instrument training in your plane, if you could work out the insurance issue (keep in mind that you would legally still be Pilot in Command even while doing the training, and could log the time as such, provided you weren't flying in actual instrument conditions. Instrument training stops at 200' off the ground anyway. From there on in, it's VFR with you doing the driving. I doubt there is much danger of you bending the plane while you are at least 200' off the pavement? Just a thought). If you did this, I am sure you could get back up to speed in a low performance single in just a few hours, do the IFR check-ride (which would feel like doing it in slow motion after being used to practicing in the skymaster) and then just do the IFR portion of the multi check ride in your own bird.

As far as my own saga goes, I ended up with the instrument, unrestricted multi, and insurance for the P-model (at around $6,500/yr) all with about 200 hours total time. Another 100 hours in the 337, and it should drop down into the more realistic range.

The one thing I came to realize while doing my training was that you have to play the game. The FAA expects you to do things in a certain order and in a certain way, and the insurance companies definitely have their own expectations. Do what you have to do to get the ratings and meet the insurance requirements as economically as possible, then do what YOU have to do to feel good about it in the real world. It's your butt on the line.

Since I am apparently more worried about my butt than either the FAA or the insurance companies, I did some additional dual in the skymaster and went through SIMCOM's high altitude training and RTC's Skymaster Initial transition course even though this training wasn't mandated by anyone. Then, I set some pretty conservative personal minimums and have started tip-toeing my way into the real world, one approach at a time.

PS: I am a big believer in center-line-thrust and am wary of conventional twins. But, I have got to say that the Seminole I did my multi training in was extremely forgiving and very easy to fly, even with one engine shut down. Things happen a lot slower in the Seminole than they do even in the P337. I don't think I would have wanted to do my multi in a MU-2, however!

My route was similar but different.
I bought my Skymaster with 138 TT. I then went to a ME school in Texas, about $1k, and got my conventional ME rating. Then, when I came back from TX, I flew with my instructor in my plane, and did all the instrument training in my plane. It was a great way to get to know the aircraft. Finding a DPE was a little difficult, but not overly so, and did the ME IFR checkride with him. Because I had a VFR conventional ME rating, I ended up with a IFR ME rating, no CLT restriction. The checkride was thorough. My aircraft had no GPS, but does have a slaved electric HSI. The DPE covered that up anyway for the partial panel part of the test.
Since I did all the training in my plane, I had no simulator time, and it probably cost me more. The benefit was I quickly accumulated significant amount of time in the aircraft, which affected, positively, my insurance rates when it came time for renewal.
Also, I recall the DPE saying, " you really know your airplane ", which was a very positive comment.