Help & Advice on an avionics upgrade path
 

Hello All :-)
Some of you may remember from an earlier thread that i'm in the process of a very deep restoration of a P337H Riley Rocket that I pulled out of a salvage yard in the Netherlands last year.

The aircraft has been re-registered on the N-Registry and will be under Part 91 rules. We're about 18 months away (i'd guess) from starting an avionics fit out and I wanted to start the research process into how exactly to go about it.

What's my target
Other than my incredibly analogue Yak 52, the other aircraft that I fly a lot is a Diamond DA42 which is G1000 and GFC700 equipped. It's an extremely powerful tool and i'm a big fan of the Garmin ecosystem.

In an ideal world, i'd like to put in the aircraft:
- 2x 10.5" G600TXI's
- 1x GTN750 XI
- EIS TXI (+7" display)
- GFC700
- G5 AI/DI
+ All the other associated remote transponder and radio and interactive (flight stream) gubbins.

I'm not unrealistic around the cost of such things :-) However I just wanted some advice as to whether you think that it's practical to do this sort of thing under field approval/337 (especially the GFC) or whether i'm being a bit unrealistic.

I also need to find somebody to do this with us in Europe (South East of the UK) as we don't necessarily have a local FAA office we can work with :-D

Before somebody ask's 'What's your mission and why do you want all this stuff' For completeness... :-) I have a hole in my diary in about 3 years time where i'm planning to take a year out and travel the world in this aircraft. I'd like to bring it back across to the United States, do some of the big fly in's with you fine people and then go down into South America. On a day to day basis i'd use this aircraft to fly between the UK & France (about an 1.5h each way in the air)

Any thoughts or advice?

Kind Regards

My impression is that you're right - the autopilot will be the hardest thing to do on field approval. I haven't heard of one being done that way for any plane.

No se si es el mejor juego
 

I’m on my 3rd 337 (69D, 73G, 77G) and have been happy with the factory autopilot (if not working well there are still shops that fix them and can do it with just the units, off the aircraft). If field approval is an issue, it’s something to consider, plus it will save you money. In my current aircraft I have a Garmin GTN650 (touch) and a GTX335 ADS-B along with my Cessna autopilot, so some new and some old. The autopilot has served me well on several very long trips, including one from Miami to Idaho, almost at the other extreme of the country. Perhaps others might jump in here and share views on this, especially if they disagree.

Ernie

Instead of the GFC700, get an STEC55x and a GAD43e. Those will be STC'ed. I think it'll get you 90% of what you want.

Autopilots Central
 

Looking at the options, it would be $25k++ ish to put in a new autopilot.

The airplane is soooooo stable I hardly use it at all, but...

I took out the servos (wing panels), the brain (over rear most seats), and control head (by knee), wire tied their airframe connectors so they couldn't hang anything up, and sent to autopilots central to bench debug the whole thing.

About $5k. Works like new.

Pretty much the only thing I ever use it for is straight and level, with bearing and altitude hold. Mostly just to play with it.

Simply tweak heading knob until the projected 50mi track vector on my GPS overlies the next place I want to be, and presto.

Yeah I think this is probably going to be the only way to go unless Dynon suddenly decide to help us.

Using an original 400A autopilot I believe is not authorized with the Garmin WAAS navigators for LPV approaches. My understanding is the 400B is approved for LPV.

Dan

Source for this? First I have heard of it.

The 400A can be used for LNAV minimums, however, LPV minimums, are not authorized. Attached is a page out of the 530W installation manual rev E.

Dan

Interesting! I have Rev K of same manual and it does not have that limitation. Nor does it have most of the autopilot interconnect diagrams.

My Rev M. Manual has the same info.

Dan

"Note: Contact Garmin to remove VNAV limitations."

Talking with Billy today, engineer at Garmin, we can’t get LPV minimums with the 400A autopilot, LNAV minimums only. The 400B that is approved is a different animal compared to the 400A.

Dan

Rats. Tell them to certify the GFC500 for us.

I'd also like to lean on fellow Skymaster owners for advice on basic upgrades. VFR pilot looking to finish off Instrument.

I don't anticipate flying in heavy soup with low ceilings. Really just to get out, maybe on top with relatively decent weather at destination..or just won't go. Plan to set pretty moderate personal minimums another words.

1973 "G" model, currently has:
Stec 55x w CWS
GNC300XL
KN64DME
KR87 ADF
2 MX-170B with KI209A Glideslopes
KT76A transponder with Avionix Tail beacon
Strikefinder
Eaton Annunciation push switches to control what feeds autopilot, glideslopes, etc.
I use Stratus 2 and Fore-flight

Thinking for training (and usefulness) to add Waas/GPS capability.

Am looking at adding one of following:
Garmin GPS175
Garmin GNC355
Garmin GNX375
Probably a G5 HSI or AV30

Have thought about a used 430 or 530, but for what they cost along with installation thought it might be better to go with a unit mentioned above. Obviously can dump the GNC300 and tail beacon if need be and likely the ADF.

All input appreciated :))

Are you planning to keep the plane for 5 years or more? Just get the GTN-750 and be done with it. You will never be sorry that you did except the day you write the check, after that you will only have a smile on your face that you bought the box that does more tomorrow when you really need it. As we grow with our airplanes our experience level accelerates and we will wish we had paid all that installation money for more capability than we had originally thought we would need. You have a very capable airplane so why compromise the ability today when you will need that capability tomorrow. Yes the hardware will cost more but the installation cost won't change much. The GTN-750 is just the best box out there for our airplane and you will grow into this unit within a couple years and be able to say that you are so glad you bought more and not less.

Also the Avidyne boxes are awesome too and did not mean to not include them. Just saw that you were talking Garmin so ran with that.

Bottom line, buy more than you need today as you will want it tomorrow

Thank you, Herb! As I struggle with my decisions on my own panel updates, you put into words what I needed someone to say.

-J

The last update of 4XXW SFMS, 190-00356-03 Rev. G, indicates that there are no autopilots authorized for LPV approaches (attached image). Not sure you could use the info posted for the 5XX SFMS if you didn't have one on board.

That said, Sandel had a software update that would allow my 3308 to do it. So, I purchased it, it wasn't cheap, and I had the avionics shop install it and do some hard-wire changes that it required. The update also provided the autopilot integration to fly it.

As a note, Sandel might have bit the dust in '20. They were walloped by everything that happened this year to include the wildfires in CA. They no longer are answering their phones or emails. I bought the annual DB update for the 3308's memory; yeah, it has a Jepp DB of US fixes in it. The shop had a problem with the date range of the software, and it would not load. At least the annual update is cheap. Anyway, my 400A actually does a heck of a job flying an LPV approach. Spot on. My airplane was just up to APC for a problem, it was the attitude indicator, not the autopilot, and the test pilot let it fly the approaches to minimums as part of his profile.

As a note, it is worth taking the airplane to APC in Tulsa. They ended up flying my airplane twice with their pilot and techs, and the tweaks were worth it. They have the equipment the I suspect no one else has. The airplane is flown through a test profile; in the Skymaster's case, there is a tech in the front with their pilot, and there is a tech in the back seat with the seat laid down, making adjustments to the box in the overhead. While they are doing this, there is a great place to eat 171' away; Evelyn's Soul Food. Jimmie Cricket! Tulsa is directly on our Victoria to St. Paul grandkid flight. Evelyn's will be a mandatory "fuel" stop north and southbound.

Me personally, I don't have a problem letting it fly one. My 400A is always in top shape, I know how to monitor a system and an approach, and my 20K hour plus background is heavy with both IFR and LNAV operations. Of course, look at the Terrain Proximity notes on the same attachment. You're not supposed to use it either. Right, that's one of the reasons you bought it and maintain the updates. Garmin is covering the butt.

The difference between the 400A and B is that the A uses chain/sprocket drives, and the B uses torque motors. The B flies the airplane with input pressure just like you would by hand. I'm not sure the C337 ever had any B installations.

I briefly considered going to the glass, but that means an autopilot change as well. With the STEC 55 being the only option, it's not for me. I've flown a bunch of different airplanes professionally since I retired from the airlines. I see a lot of inop STECs. The three STEC installations I've been flying this year are all inop (all 55s). I've talked to three shops this year about going to the glass, which means that I leave the 400A. All three have told me to plan on doubling the autopilot's cost to cover the installation labor. That is not out of line with what I've experienced with other installations I've had done over the last two years. I keep a spare, rebuilt attitude indicator on the shelf; that's the real key to the 400A. APC has prepped it, but I will take the airplane up there to adjust if it is put in use.

I've got a bunch of stuff to be done going into my annual in a couple of months, but I'm not going to go to glass in my airplane. Too much $$$ for an airframe that is working towards 50 years old, that's me. If everything craps out, or I feel the need for glass, I'm going to buy a used late-model Seneca V with all the bells and whistles; FIKI, radar, and airconditioned and be done with it.

What's weird is that in the late '70s, I flew a 337G, P337G, and a PA34-200T Seneca II professional during the same time period. The 337G was flown on a pipeline patrol from the TX/Mexico border into AL weekly. The P337G was flown in TX and Mexico, and the PA34 in TX, NM, CO, and Mexico. I liked all three. I guess I'm back to my roots.

I always thought those Garmin AFMS entries were "checkboxes" and the installer goes through the generic AFMS and tailors it to your installation be checking the various limitation boxes. No checkmark in the box means the limitation didn't apply to your installation. I'll read up more on it.

That would make sense, jetter. I'm looking at a blank copy of the PDF on my computer. I'll be flying tomorrow, so I will look in the POH where the airplane's copy is.

What was required to enable the auto flight VNav, in respect to my two 430W, the Sandel 3308, and the 400A; was the last software upgrade on the 3308 to V2.3 ($1700)*, a 400hz inverter, and a King/Bendix autopilot adapter (which required a modification), and some additional hardwiring from the 430Ws to the 3308. Sandel provided the wire diagrams (shop kept them). My shop could not find the specific A/P adapter as they are out of production but knows the guy at Sandel, and he sent one to the shop without charge. Anyway, after a couple of weeks, my shop only works half a day, it was done. We went and flew the approaches, and the shop owner said, you are good to go. Selections between the two 430Ws and VHF Navs are through the selector on the 3308.

The APC pilot was very complimentary of my shop's integration; he said it was perfect.

*This is where I first considered the G5s as what started this was that my attitude indicator had failed, and it was good timing to take care of the VNav stuff. I learned that the G5 causes the 400A to away. With a nice flying 400A, that would be a lot of money spent to get back to the same capability. I bought a replacement attitude indicator and had the failed indicator repaired for $1150 altogether and keep the spare on the shelf. After the coming annual, I will find a spare 3308; they have gotten cheap and keep it on the shelf as well. That should last me another decade.

I've also not seen any other 3308s updated to 2.3.

I guess I just had to state it! I just got a saved search notice that a 3308 with 2.30 had been listed on eBay. Very little time on it; it was being held as a spare as well, so I made an offer, and it was accepted. Okay, I'm set with the important spares, so I'm good until I'm too old to do this. 430Ws are getting cheap; I might buy one when I see the right one.

I follow a Seneca group and the G5s are even a bit more head scratching than our considerations. Got to really pay attention to the fine print.

Patrolpilot,
Any chance you can get your hands on those wiring diagrams for Sandel 3308 and 400 autopilot interface?
I have Sandel 3308 too. Would like to interface it with the AP.
After reading your post, called Sandel today and their phone is disconnected. So it's looking like not going to get any further support from them.

I will ask them, I'm waiting for the shop to call me in as I have a transmit issue on my #2 430W.

Question, do you have the 2.3 WAAS software upgrade on your 3308? Apparently, few did it as it was $1700. No 3308s were manufactured in this version. Without that, you are stuck. The upgrade was serialized to the specific 3308, there is no way to upgrade any other unit other than the registered unit.

Yes I have the 2.3 software upgrade.
I like the sandel unit. Was even thinking about going to the 3500
LED version. Such a shame. I guess this means no updates for background waypoints on the integrated map as I got my last update from Sandel?

Great, as soon as the fellow calls, I will get down there and see what I can do.

I would go sooner, but I'm right in the middle of moving. It's not your average move as we are selling the ranch we live on, and it's a residential move times 100. It's taking weeks.

I just worked through selling all the heavy farm equipment I have; it's crazy how money was tied up in it. I could buy another Skymaster :eek: My wife is taking care of the brunt of it, as there are three homes on the property. I keep focused on the new place, a new home on smaller acreage, and 10 minutes (vs. one hour) from the "Grinder" (Skymaster).

Same here, rather than buying a spare. I have not had the avionics tech sift through the 3500's autopilot list.

Yes, it is a shame. I can't imagine what it would take to even compete in this business against the likes of Garmin.

Dynon seems to be doing well. They just added their first multi-engine STC, the PA34 (Seneca), everything all the way through to a new autopilot. Wise move with so many airframes out there, with the older airframes needing renovation. Garmin and Aspen cause the FIKI you paid for to be invalid. Dynon went through FIKI approval.

I bought the 2020 map update from Sandel, but it could not be installed. It has an "Invalid Date Range" message. The shop could not get around it and could not get ahold of the fellow that helped with the integration. I cannot get a hold of the lady that sold it to me. I did notice that with the New Year that the Sandel webpage is reformatted, it now being Sandel Avilon. Maybe there is hope, and some of this can be sorted out. :confused:

The phone number is the same and dead. So, I tried calling the fax number, thought I would send them a fax if I received the tone. Instead, after a bunch of rings, someone's voice mail picked up. I left her a message; the voice wasn't the same lady that usually answers the phone.

their website is still active and the installation manuals can be downloaded from there.

Appreciate patrolpilot's help!
I do have the install manual for SN3308 which I have studied for some time. But Patrolpilot mentions a "King/Bendix autopilot adapter (which required a modification)" and this came from Sandel. So sounds like important stuff. An autopilot adapter is not in the installation drawings from Sandel.

The Uavionix AV-30C is not certified for any twin engine aircraft, including the Skymaster. I was very disappointed to learn this, as I felt it would be a nice upgrade to my mechanical AI.

The Garmin G5 is certified for the Skymaster, and most light twins. Not that I'm a Garmin fanboy by any means, but Garmin wins this one (as far as twins go!).

With a 55x your best bet may be the Aspen. They have a software unlock that allows the Aspen to play directly with the 55x as a mode controller with altitude select. Could start with an E5 and upgrade it to a full when you need the power.

I have a Uavionics AV-30 and a couple years ago asked them to include Skymaster on their AML list when they went for their certification. I got an email from them advising skymaster was approved before I took delivery of my certified AV-30 and have spoken with them throughout certification process.
However, in terms of driving legacy autopilots discussed on this thread, it is of no help.

Show that email to the FAA ramp inspector and see how far it gets you. Or to the NTSB investigator after an accident/incident. You have an "Unapproved installation" which grounds your aircraft immediately, and threatens your pilot's license as well. I was castigated on this site for using non-PMA LED landing lights, but they were endorsed by the Bonanza Society, so I knew they were good lights. I understand the rules don't always make sense. But the risks are very different here. You best have a canopy cover whenever you park at a public airport. Prying eyes will cause you grief. The AV-30 is well-known in the aviation world, and most serious inspectors know its only approved for single engine aircraft. I don't agree with the logic, but I don't agree with the hassle it could cause either.

Might be able to install under NORSEE as a AoA indicator, but I agree, not as primary replacement without bona fide STC via AML & permission letter.

I understand the comments and appreciate them.
I had noted their AML list did not include 337 when I checked their website few weeks ago and have been meaning to call them to see what's up. But the e-mail saying "Cessna 337 has been added to the AML list" exists. I just pulled it up again to check my memory. So I will call to clarify.
Avionics installer was also comfortable with it when we ordered unit and conferred with them.
However, with caution I have retained my OEM AI...plus it drives my legacy autopilot.
I believe my personal next step beyond the legacy stuff I have would be an Aspen and STEC autopilot.

I talked to some senior guys at Garmin recently. They intend to add 337 to G500txi Engine Indication System to STC and GFC autopilot. When?? “In the fullness of time” is what I remember thinking...

Garmin
 

Just a brief note on support of the Garmin G5s - I have two installed, and it is integrated with my GTN750 and my OLD Century IIB autopilot - and it works great - I could only be happier once they STC the GFC500 for the Skymaster!!!

I have a bit of envy when seeing the GI275 in a friend's aircraft (cleans up panel nicely), however the large display and total functionality and safety of the G5 to an old aircraft is well worth the investment.

I will note that I did the G5 install myself (and integration with the AP) and it works great! I had to retain the horizon that drives the AP, and the G5 HSI integrates beautifully.

Let's keep pressure on Garmin to include the C337 on the GFC500 (or the 600) AML - they are including aircraft types that have far fewer airframes on the US register than the 337...I have let them know this by calling out those types!

Jeff

P.S. Compare and contrast the 2 aircraft panels - one from 1948 and one from 1966... Pretty good for some 'old girls'

panel
 

Jeff:

Quick question, did you have a new pilot side instrument panel made? I have the same year, just an earlier serial number, and my instruments are not lined up vertically like yours because the clock (same as yours) is mounted right above the yoke (factory hole) which pushes the bottom 2 instruments out so they are not directly lined up with the ones above. I will be installing 2 G5's this year and was wondering what to do about them not lining up vertically.

Thanks! Tom

Love your panel, I'm going to do the exact same thing with the mid cont m93 clock/USB + AV20s, as well as the G4 insight.