Folks, we need to fortify the front against Garmin (Autopilot)
 

As I noted in my thread yesterday, the older S-Tecs are no longer an option, and the 55x is 35k all in. If you don’t have a G5, GI-275, etc to feed the 55x, it’s 46k with a G5 added. I’m sure that’s easier for some than others, but file me under “others” … too many other irons in the fire to allocate something like that for a very long time. Sadly, without change to the market, we know this will only get worse.

For those of you with a 400A, you still have options—for now. AP Central warned me yesterday that those days are numbered, though that could mean 1 year, or 5–they wouldn’t put a number on it. That aside, matching components are becoming scarce. Add another point in Genesys’ favor.

Either way, our aircraft are quickly being cornered into a single-solution market for APs, period … unless you want to take your odds on a field inspection. This means Genesys can quite comfortably set the price as they please. I myself am going to look again to the Garmin threads here an ensure that I’ve put an up-to-date bid in for my part.

I would strongly suggest that we all do, and nudge our fellow owners who haven’t checked in here in a while to do the same.

Autopilot data points worth repeating: in the history of the FAA, there has never been a field approval for changing a factory autopilot or adding an autopilot on a civil certificated aircraft.

I’ve spoken to the head autopilot guy at Garmin a couple times, and he’s the one that told me the above. He also tells me they will eventually borrow someone’s 337 for a year and run the STC on either the 500 or 600 autopilot. No promise of when. I offered my airplane and offered to pay for the equipment (got the idea from patrol pilot!) but was told to go sign up online. And wait.

All that said…I have heard tell of an outfit in Florida that can do the Engineering to show how to connect a 400 or 400A autopilot to modern Garmin glass PFD. If one paid for that, then that data becomes the approved data and basis to approve connecting the STC’d glass displays to a factory autopilot not covered by the STC. In other words…you get field approval for the connection diagrams, and hook it up. I hear it works just fine. I haven’t contacted that guy yet, but will if I can’t get my AP fully functional.

For those of us that have STec 55X, wouldn't it be simpler for them to work out the upgrade for the 3100? I am probably over simplifying......

We've been talking about autopilots on this site for years now. I believe we do not have enough numbers for an autopilot manufacturer to be interested in providing an economic solution nor digital autopilot offering for us. But take a look at what's happening. Garmin wants to install complete packages mainly to the OEMs but will do a complete package for somebody with deep pockets. Genesys by definition is marketing to the aftermarket. The 3100 is a big success and it is replacing a large amount of the 55x. What's happening to those units? Genesys I heard makes the 55X owner trade in their autopilot on the 3100. The 55X is piling up on the floor of Genesys. You can't buy one from eBay and install it without an STC from Genesys. Maybe go to the factory and suggest they remanufacture the 55X and sell them to the Skymaster community for a deep discount. With the STC. As if we were helping them out with the "Big Problem" they are having with all those 55Xs piling up. Worth a shot. The dealer will have to be involved and will want some say in the installation in order to sign off the STC. But a Mom and Pop, decent autopilot installer, might answer the call for the actual labor for the install. Not exactly a straight path but a possibility.

Been through all of this and offered up my airplane to both Garmin (600) and Genesys (3100), along with all costs. They are not the least interested in the Skymaster. I get it, though. Have you looked at the average Mixer? In my travels across the country, I see 337s on various ramps, and almost all encounters are examples are spent airframes. Sure the pretty ones are in hangars and cared for, but I am willing to bet the majority are at their end. Not good. Remember that those of us represented here have a very unusual interest in an airplane that is a 43-year-old airplane at best.

I've been thinking the same as GAdams as of late; about all those 55 that have been traded in.

For me, right now, my 400A is still great. When I was last at APC, I bought a spare G-519-A Attitude Indicator and had APC calibrate it to my airplane. Sure enough, it failed earlier this year. I slipped it into the panel, and my autopilot never knew something had changed. I plan to schedule another visit to APC this year to ensure everything looks good.

My airplane is in the shop right now with everything out of it. An Aspen 2500 Evolution Pro system is being installed. I decided to stick with my two 430Ws as they went through the Garmin refurbishing two years ago. The AI does have to remain in the panel, but there is very little between the panel and the firewall now. The airplane is scheduled to be out of the shop in 20 days. The picture is back from mid-December.

Attachment 2836

The 400A needs the AI pitch and roll, but the Aspen system can handle all navigation inputs from there.

This is probably it for me; I'm 69 and will ride the airframe out from here. The simplest of parts could end an airplane. I'm constantly chasing components, it seems. Also, it is getting tough to find someone who can work on the airplane without paying to train them as they gain experience. Most shops I've contacted are not interested in the work.

Just spoke with Genesys about this. The reason they have discontinued the 30/40/50 systems is simply that they can't get parts orders filled. As reported, they still have orders from early '22 that are unfulfilled, with no known ETA.

This also meant, as the rep confirmed, that if your current 30/40/50 has an issue, and it requires a component for which they no longer have stock, you may be looking at an AP replacement.

I intend to call about getting an STC for the 3100s to put in my part for encouragement on that front.

Garmin GFC 500
 

I emailed Max Unruh in March 2022.

Coles Notes of Conversation:

1. Planning on doing the GFC 500, will require a GI-275
2. Timing was estimated in little over 1 year from March 2022
3. They would be looking at the model that is the heaviest from the factory (or with 5% of heaviest gross weight) and turbocharged.

I will follow up with him and see where they are at. Another group to pressure is the Dynon Certified guys. They have already done it with a twin (piper seneca) so all is not lost.

Chris

Quick update...as Max gets back to you faster than anyone I've ever seen....

Max is no longer working with autopilots, new guy still needs to be hired and he will make an introduction.

I emailed him back with this:
"Thanks max!

You may want to also tell the new guy that the 337 community is starting to freak out. There are currently no suitable autopilots for it has as even the 55x is not shipping right now.

The first company with an approved AP will win the entire fleet just about as we are stuck with the old navomatics and there are a lot of people who want to upgrade now."

For which he replied and said that was good feedback and will be used in decision making going forward.

Chris

I agree with all of the above points.

I failed to mention that Genesys pointed out the same to me with regard to the 55x: yes it’s still certified, but no, they can’t get production of that either. Also, 40k.

So basically, there is no shippable autopilot. Either you have something already in place and can make it work…or wait and hope

I have offered by T337G (pressurized) for the gfc 500.
GI275 x2
GTN 750 XI

I haven't heard anything back.

DD

https://www.portapilot.com/
 

When I was a kid I used to design medical diagnostic tech robotics.
I was admittedly, a weird kid.

The feedback tasks of any autopilot are really very simple.

This clever gadget would probably work just fine on a 337.

As a portable device, no FAA involvement.
'Clamp and go'

My Ye Olde Navomatic gets its course correction off the CDI.
I just upgraded my panel to Avidyne fantasy suite w new King CDI.
KI 209 I think?

The CDI gets signals from IFR GPS 550 AND and provides left right guidance to AP.
Including GPSSS, which is merely anticipating turns over a fix, instead of hard correction.

Doesn't drive AP elevator, but that's trivial anyway.
Trim for level flight, engage AP. Done.
Little AP head by right knee can climb / descend, hold heading, intercept/track, hold altitude, etc.

The portable AP looks like $3K.
https://www.portapilot.com/product-page/portapilot-vnav

Plus another $100 to supply power from 24 volts
https://www.portapilot.com/product-p...ng-power-cable

I four AP is dead and no longer supported,
and you really need one, to hold heading, altitude and track course,
for $3k I'd give the portable a try and see how it does.

If its terrible I'm sure they'd take it back.
My guess is it would work just fine.

It's just some some stable convergent (not divergent) feedback systems after all.

Report back to us if you do.

Darn interesting

https://www.portapilot.com/media

It is interesting, and not a bad idea at all, but I bet it has "FOR VFR USE ONLY" stamped prominently in the manual somewhere! :rolleyes:
EDIT: They go even farther - " LIMITED TO DAY VFR CONDITIONS, OVER SPARSELY POPULATED AREAS, AT LEAST 5 MILES FROM AN AIRPORT"

I want one of those inflatable autopilots like they had on Airplane! The Movie.

Pretty soon you'll be able to say "Alexa, fly me home" LOL :D

PortaPilot seems a reach. My airplane isn't that tough to fly, even great distances.

I sure would be interested in hearing about this route.

I flew without an autopilot for the first many years of having my license. I flew Cessna 150, 172, 310 and more from Texas to California and Florida, hand flown every mile.

I used to think less of pilots who used autopilots. I eventually bought a few singles and two twins without (working) APs and always considered myself a better pilot for not needing one. Then I flew 135 and 121, and started to see the benefit of having a good AP. I still liked not having one when I flew GA aircraft, just to stay sharp.

Then I bought my first Bonanza with an AP in great working condition. I could trust it to hold an altitude, steer a course, or hold a heading. I could even trust it to fly a specific VS and capture an altitude. I could hit "direct-to" and I knew the plane would take me there. I am now sold on having an AP in my GA airplane!

My P337H has the STEC 60-2 AP with the ST360 preselect module, and life is great, but I don't think I'm as sharp as I was before when hand-flying was the only choice.

Be happy with what you have and where you are. We are truly blessed to be Skymaster owners.

I am not yet an experienced pilot, but my current CFI who has many thousands of hours in small jets (135) has advised me that flying IMC alone (even with lots of experience) with a navomatic 400 might be one of my least risk averse moments. That task management in suddenly worsening IMC could pile up dangerously, and a failed or inaccurate AP could spell real trouble in that moment.

A 400a, in good rig, would be another story, since they are better to begin with (or so we've both read/heard), and still serviceable. Even AP Central said they won't take the 400 aught anymore.

Much as I'd love to be happy with mine, I have learned to heed his advice. And when Genesys is saying they probably can't even get inventory for the newer model (that I can't afford), the last option we have, I get even more concerned.

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...rim-issue-fix/

Garmin might have been a little preoccupied to add any more aircraft to their STC list lately. “GFC placarded as inoperative.” Pretty serious problem to put their time and attention on. Maybe now or soon, can approach them again.

To be helpful to the group: Yesterday I completed the final flight test of the 55X system in my 337D model. All went flawless and I now have an autopilot nicely matched to the 337. I started working on this project back in April of 2022. I paid less than half the numbers you all are quoting for the 55X and the install. I did not elect to install the electric trim option as my airplane doesn't have electric trim anyway. Manually trimming this airplane is a non issue with the autopilot. The path to this success was long and not without setbacks but I may have paved the way for the rest of the fleet to an autopilot solution. My installer was the key. He worked with an Genesys dealer for the purchase of a remanufactured 55X, he did the installation and the dealer signed off the final inspection and paperwork. The dealer doesn't want to do the install and if you make him, he will quote 120 hours flat rate where the install took 54 hours. The install rate was $75 per hour. I have warranties as if it was a factory new unit. I'm not going to publish the installer's name and number here but PM me and I will share the information. We now have a path to replace our aging 300/400/400A's with at least a modern supported autopilot. Not digital but perhaps good enough for our birds. That's your decision.

Thanks GA.

To be sure, the 55x is certified for our planes. The reason for my concern is that I can't find an installer that estimates under 35k for the most basic of installations. On the east coast it seems I can't find anyone to tell me what color my airplane is for less than $130 plus time and materials. Even if I could it's worrisome when Genesys says they can't fill orders for the 55x right now at any price. At face value that's a problem for a little while anyway, and a monopoly is also an undesirable state of affairs if I read into all of this. We may be a niche market, but we're not flying B314s either (10 pt bonus if you can spot one without googling).

Or maybe we are numbering that few, but I guess I'm saying let's not go quiet into that dark night. Not just yet. Rather, keep lobbying Garmin and Genesys for more options.

Now about that contact you have...

As would I. Wouldn't be Boxwell, would it?

I don’t know if it was him, or Sarasota, or someone else. Ive not yet been able to confirm any of the rumors I posted below.

Note, Barry @ Genesys sent an Email that they have started taking deposits today for S-TEC 3100 installations for the 337. They'll do the STC if they reach 25 deposits.

I'm dropping off the deposit check at my Genesys dealer this afternoon.

-Ryan (N255)

I have 2-3 people committed up here if we can get the numbers up....that puts us to 6-7 people now.....

Well I started the thread, and if it's really 25k to get from an ARC to two digitally controlled, supportable axes, then it's better than 35k-45k, and I'll commit.

Just called my local avionics shop--they hadn't heard of this but I passed on the contact info and he is going to call. I will put dowm my deposit after my avionics guy gets confirmation.

Kevin

Lets work out the install too...

One shop just estimated an install (without of course ever having had an opportunity to perform one) right back at 40k. So not an "affordable alternative"... just a digital one.

YankeeClipper: Check with another Genesys dealer, $40K seems at least several thousand $ too high. That would work out to about $14K of install labor to reach $40K.

Ryann: Can I share your estimate amount? Or do you want to share it?

Cory, feel free. You're in a better position than I am to talk about the factors that go into the installation and labor.

-Ryan

STEC (Genesys) 3100 337 Parts Cost for a new install is $25995, which is listed in the email Ryann posted from Barry at Genesys. My shop has a flat rate of 20 hours per servo and 10 hours for the controller and other pieces. My shop rate is currently $135/hr. Thats puts my install costs at $9450 and a 10% shop consumable fee. Ryan's estimate total is $36,390. If anybody has any questions, please feel free to call: 541-507-1007

Cory, would that be based on a 3 axis install that replaces a legacy (eg ARC) AP?

This is a three axis new install with no autopilot or a non-STEC AP currently installed. The upgrade cost from a legacy STEC AP is estimated $10995 parts, $5400 labor, $540 shop consumables. So just under $17k. Now, this is based on my shop rate, which is $135/hr. Oh, also I don’t have taxes. ;)

Interesting... Barry thought the installs would take about 130 hours, which is more than twice the time in this estimate, and he was referring to a 2-axis install.

I'll charge you for 130 hours if you want me to. :p

Just a question here: looking at the Genesis 3100 certification list, I’m wondering if Beechcraft Travelair or Twin Commander fleet had to put up 25 deposits of $5000 to get their certification?

Those are also low volume, long out of production twin aircraft…but they’re certified for the 3100.

What’s the secret to get on the list?

Some hope
 

Please have all your SkyMaster buddies fill out this form for Garmin. I talked with my Garmin Rep and he said to have each of you fill out the form. The more the better.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/forms/autopilotinterest/

I want you to get an autopilot. Please let me know in a reply that you filled out the form. If you can't remember if you filled it out, try it anyway. If you know you've filled it out previously, let me know as a reply as well. This way I can tell him numbers. Those numbers are my ammunition to trying to get this pushed through.

Done.

-Gray-