To hail or not to hail?
 

[snip, remainder of this message in Hail Damage thread -Kevin]

Any chance Scott Smith could get a new pilot insured in a Skymaster? What about a 336...fixed gear and all. A pipe dream I suppose but I just thought it might be worth checking with him.

Hugh

I am low time 150 hours total with 50 hours in my O2-A and my insurance is about $3000/ year through Aviation insurance Managers

Oscardeuce, do you have IFR, do they require every year or two simulator or other training (aside from the FAA biennial)? If the answer to both is NO, can you give us their phone number?

Ernie

You might consider that the high quote you first got for insurance was for a "P" model and that was the major reason.

If you buy a normally-aspirated plane you should be able to get insurance reasonably (given what reasonable means for anything in today's markets). You should ask Skysmith to give you a quote for a diff. aircraft that isn't pressurized and I think you'd be surprised.

BTW, I saw a nice 1972 normally-aspirated model that was very well equipped and had de-ice and hot prop, even - for $90K on the ASO.COM (Aircraft Shopper Online) - out of Caldwell, Idaho. Engine times were not bad, either (fairly low on one and 980 on the other).

insurance
 

1. No IFR rating
2. no specific sim time
I found an instructor with 1500 plus in O2-A, was good enough for them.
I get lots of input from military O2-A pilots from Viet Nam.
Aviation Isurance Managers Inc
Steve Neeley
330 494 1500
1 800 827 4554
Of to the Airshow!!
Tom

Up in Canada you can go thru COPA for a reduced rate. Can you go thru AOPA in the US??????

Frank

What to look for when buying a Skymaster
 

This thread will be used to create a FAQ on what to look when purchasing a Skymaster. Please contribute every tip you have time to share, and I will move the information to a FAQ section on this site. All information will be credited to you, unless you indicate you would prefer to be anonymous. If you do want to make anonymous contributions, please send them to webmaster@337skymaster.com.

Thanks!

Kevin

Now that I think I have an idea what it may cost to maintain one I need to get a handle on insurance costs. I called the agent who insures my other airplane and is VERY reasonable for that plane. His "ballpark" quote seems a little high to me.

ATP
10,000 hours
7,500 - 8,000 multi
2 hours in 337
no accident or violations
hypothetical airplane: normally aspirated 337 worth $125,000.

Their ballpark quote without having a specific N # was $3200.

Is this what others have experienced?

Dave

Dave,
Seems close to me I insure my hull for a bit less, but have fewer hours.
Tom

Pre-purchase book
 

Kevin,

I'm sure you've followed the discussions I've had re. the possibilty of a Skymaster purchase early in my aviation career. I have yet to make a hard and fast decision but am leaning toward doing it.

I'm thinking I'll get my private at roughly 65 hrs. If I then get a high performance and a complex endorsement, I'm then near 100 hrs. Throw in some C182 rental hrs and I certainly will be. If I then get a Skymaster, any insurance company is likely going to require 25 hrs of dual instruction in type. Well the ME rating (and I realize that is with CLT limitation if I do it in the Skymaster) will take 10-15 of those anyway. If that all works out, I'd be a rated, insured owner in the 125 - 150 hrs. range.

I know there are some who would disagree with that approach but in thinking about my motivations for learning to fly in the first place and what my mission will be, I think it would be the way to go for me. Let's put it this way, it is what I want to do. The only question remaining is will I listen to those who advise against such an approach. There many knowledgeable people in that group so I'm not yet certain. But while the thought gestates, I can continue to educate myself.

That having been said, I recall seeing a reference here before to a book on the subject of buying a Skymaster but I can't seem to find the thread. Would you be able to direct me to the book? Thanks.

Hugh

The only book I am aware of that is specifically about buying a Skymaster is from Scott Smith of SkySmith, Inc. I went and pulled the text description from his site:

"How to buy a used Skymaster" book - This book was complied and written by Scott “Sky” Smith. The book includes all of the Skymaster specifications as taken from the Cessna Skymaster type certificates. It includes three view drawings, pictures and performance specifications representative of each of the different models of the Cessna Skymaster produced. There are addition sections about Airworthiness Directives, STC’s and more. All this information for $40.00 plus $5.00 shipping and handling.

To purchase, you can email Scott at sales@skysmith.com.

For my two cents (we all have them here), I think your plan sounds like a good one. Enjoy!

Kevin

Thanks
 

Thanks Kevin. Ordered the book. Perhaps I'll have something substantive to add to the thread after I read it.

Hugh

Kevin:

Since I don't see many postings on this thread and I can't find the FAQ for buyers which you were planning, I wanted to point prospective buyers to the existing page in Peter's website which deals with this topic.

It can be found at www.skymaster.org.uk/purchase.asp and it is a depository of information gathered over the years from savvy Skymaster owners to the typical questions asked by prospective buyers (why buy a Skymaster over other aircraft, what are yearly operating costs, are they harder/costlier to maintain, what model Skymaster should I buy, what to look for in a pre-purchase inspection, etc.). My quick, recent review of it suggests to me that the info here is relatively current.

Ernie

I'm not sure I understand the "self-insured" statement.
If you have a note on the aircraft at the bank, don't they require you to have insurance to cover the loan amount?

Thanks,
Rich

you can self insure if there is no lien holder or the lender does not require it(most due)

Rick,

Do you carry liability but no hull insurance?

Jim

yes

I just bought a 1967 337B ,should have it next week.(I owned 2 others over the last 20 years) My insurance is going to be 3500 for full coverage on 45,000 with a 5,000 deductible in and not in motion, The liability part of the 3500 costs 832.00 I could have 1000 deductible for 3750. I've got about 900TT;600Multi;300 Skymaster.

Rich

re low time pilot and skymaster
 

I moved up from a cherokee 150 to a 337 at ~ 250 PIC hours, and thought it pretty early. I did my primary training in the Bay area and northern CA, probably under similar conditions to Hugh. I think jumping into a skymaster right away is not a very good idea.

That first couple of years on a new license has been very well called the 'license to learn' period. We get instruction in the regs and the basic rules on the way to the ticket, and then up jumps the real world. Ever have to peel out of your jacket and try to cover the instrument panel on a dark night because the panel lights won't dim and the 2000 ft strip on that dark little island has maybe 6 100 watt marker lights on it and you can kinda sorta see it but not the trees, and you really need to get in because the weather for 100 miles around has just gone down in heavy fog? I was sure wishing for my Cherokee that night...

I had several great instructors, included one who flew in WWII, I had a lot of free time to fly and did, and (15 years later) I sure still have a lot to learn. Figuring out how to stay ahead of the airplane while learning new areas, new procedures, establishing new mental processes etc etc etc - is far more survivable at 80-90 kts and less than 2000 lbs . Even simple tasks like flying a pattern can be entertaining when there are 150s and 172s humming along at 80kts..(or less) to be merged with. Sure, Skymaster is great at low and slow, but wrestling with the aircraft before one is really comfortable with busy traffic patterns and ATC does not sound like good planning to me.

I found it a big leap to start heading down while 100 + miles from landing (and going into overdrive, really getting the airspeed - wahoooo). Bigger leap to learn real world see and avoid, real world weather avoidance. Bigger still to discover the differences between 1700lbs flying and 5000.

Sure they are very forgiviing, but 337s are serious, fast airplanes. Scud running and puddle jumping get really dangerous at speed. I would really recommend something slower and lighter at first.

Just my opinion, of course- but I can remember why the early Bonanzas were called "V-tail Dr. Killers".

good luck and good flying-

1967 337B

With the same coverage hull & liability. From 2000
to today our insurance cost and deductable has just over doubled in price

Frank

Insurance Costs
 

FYI

I got a guote of around $5,000 on for a 71 F model valued at $60,000.

165 Hrs TT
25 hrs time in type
35 total multi/complex
Private / Instrument/ Multi ratings
no other special training, provisions
10 hours of solo required before carrying passengers.

cost
 

My insurance went down. I now pay a little over $3,300 for 1,000,000 coverage with only $125,000 on the hull. I have more than 2,100 hours total with slightly over 2,000 of multi. engine. I fly a 1975 P337G and this year they did not require me to go for retraining. Anyone want the name of the carrier I'l get for you.
Cheers
Jerry
N34EC:D :D :D

SkySmiths Book
 

Since I am in the middle of trying to buy a Skymaster, I thought I would add my two cents while it is fresh on my mind.

First, a brief review of SkySmith's book.

The book incudes a brief introductory history, some safety facts, and some information on what it is like to own and fly a skymaster.

A "top 10" list (actually top 17) of things to watch out for is also included. It elaborates on each item. It is the normal stuff that we have all seen elsewhere, but still helpful, including: rear engine oil leaks; leaky/incorrect fuel hoses; alternators (60 amp preferred); heavy cases and VAR cranks; windshield, avionics compartment and door leaks; hot running engines and good baffling; operation of cowl flaps, flaps and gear system; exhaust system breaks and leaks; cracked rudder pedestals; motor mounts; rudder pedestal cracks; hydraulic leaks; corrosion in the belly; operation of gauges and instruments (esp the fuel gauges); spar cap inspection (5000 + hours); normal AD's and SP's.

The next major section (constituting nearly half the book) is detailed list of specifications by model year (with some illustrations, etc). This is very helpful in comparing what model you want to try and buy. It includes the normally aspirated models, the turbo models, and the p-models. It even covers the O2-A and o2-B and discusses the differences between them and the civilian versions. It also covers the Riley Skyrocket and SuperSkyrocket models.

There is also an AD list which goes through 2000-23-21. I assume that this is probably updated occasionally.

There is also a list of STC's which is helpful if you are interested in various mods.

Finally, there is a miscellaneous section which covers various skymaster systems and operation (gear, fuel system, sample checklists, etc).

All in all, I found the book to be helpful. There is nothing there that you can't find elsewhere if you really dig, but the $40 price is pretty cheap to have all this stuff in one place if you put much value on your time.

More Information Resources
 

In addition to SkySmith's book, I also found a few other information sources to be especially useful.

First and foremost is the Cessna Pilot's Association Systems and Procedures course. I attended this intensive course several years ago (I believe it was either 3 or 4 days). You pick up a wealth of technical information on the skymasters, get some real hands-on experience at looking at the health of various systems, get a nice bound compilation of material relating to the skymaster, and get to interact with a lot of skymaster owners who can share their own insights. This was the single best resource I have run across, and I would highly recommend it to anyone thinking of buying a Skymaster, as well as existing owners.

The other skymaster web sites and message forums are also helpful. Since they are mentioned elsewhere, I won't go over the list again here.

The FAA's aircraft registry (www.faa.gov) is also helpful for locating potential suspects or just checking on various registrations.

There is a CD that has all aircraft registration information (including chain of title with original documents) and Forms 337 on it. I don't have this, but have seen it. It is a great resource. I assume it is available from the FAA. You can use it to put together a fairly detailed history of ownership and significant modifications and repairs to any airplane.

You can also use the FAA's A/D database to see what A/D's apply to the model you are looking at.

Teledyne Continental motors site will also let you search for A/D's and SB's on the engines (you will need the engine serial numbers). You must register for the free "aviator services" in order to gain access to this.

When contemplating avionics upgrades, eastern avionics site is nice (www.avionix.com) thanks to their fairly comprehensive catalog, decent pricing, and ease of use.

What to Look for
 

Similar to the old real-estate mantra, I would say Engines, Engines, Engines!

Unless you are buying a really loaded creampuff skymaster with recent paint and interior, the engines are going to constitute the bulk of the value of the airplane. And, obviously, they are going to be the biggest "gotcha" if they fail shortly after you get home.

Unfortunately, it is really hard to assure engine health and predict how long they will last. Of course, you can at least tell if the engines are already having serious problems by reviewing the logs, doing a borescope, oil analysis, checking the filters/screens, looking for oil leaks, checking in-flight oil consumption and operating termperatures, etc.

Someone also mentioned a more invasive procedure that I believe I will do as part of my pre-buy. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know if I have this exactly right. However, it involves removing the rocker-box covers and "rods" ? and going in through these openings to inspect the cam lobes and the ends of the "rods." Apparently, significant signs of pitting, wear, corrosion, etc. in this area would be a good indicator of bottom-end health, which is the big "gotcha" on many older skymasters. Supposedly, this will add about 5 hours of mechanic time to the pre-buy.

Another big "gotcha" is whether the engines have the VAR cranks, heavy cases and wider push-rods. If not, then you may as well budget for a factory remanufactured engine at next overhaul, which adds significantly (6,500+ per engine) to the cost. In corrolary, you must also adjust the purchase price downwards by some amount to reflect this reality.

I suppose the only other "gotcha" that can compare to bad engines is significant corrosion (especially in the wings) and any cracking/weakness at major structural attach points. This can render an airframe virtually worthless.

It's also a good idea to compare the airplane's performance to book in the air, especially if there has been any damage history. If the plane is bent, or significantly mistrimmed, it will show up in the performance (hint: look at the ailoron trim tabs. If they show major deflection in the same direction, watch out).

After these items, you are down to the second tier items which can be expensive, but not a nightmare, such as the gear system, electrical system, avionics, etc.

Well, that's my 2-cents. Good luck to you! Good luck to me!

Insurance
 

For those that are interested, I got my insurance from TRAVERS & ASSOCIATES located in St. Louis, Mo. Telephone 1-800-888-9859.
Ask for Chris. I found them to have fast service and good rates.
Jerry
N34EC

Finally Insured!
 

It has been my goal for quite a while to get insured in my Dad's 76 P Model. I finally managed it, and thought I would pass along what it takes for a low time pilot to get insured in one of these things.

First, I will say that it is considerably easier to get insured in a normally aspirated non-pressurized model (see my previous post) although you will pay a pretty fat premium the first year.

My flight resume now includes about 200 hours total time, multi and instrument ratings, and requisite endorsements. I have around 25 hours time in type (which I basically got as dual on an uninsured basis), and about 40 hours total multi and complex time.

My Premium? Around $7,000. I understand that it will probably drop a good bit after I accumulate 100 hours in the airplane, and will drop some more when I get to 500 hours total time.

The only requirements were 20 hours of dual (15 of which had to be IFR) to include 20 takeoffs and landings, and 5 hours of solo before carrying passengers. I already had most of the dual, so I just have to do the solo and I'm good to go.

Who did you work with my partner has a much higher dual requierment?
Kevin B

I recently purchased a pressurized 1973 T337G. Fortunately I had already checked insurance costs or I would have been unpleasantly surprised. I am a 600 hr Instrument pilot with most of time in a high performance retractable, but a new twin pilot, and no time in the 337. I was paying only $2300 for insurance in my Mooney with $170K hull value, 110K sublimits, 1M total. For the pressurized Skymaster, I am paying nearly $6,000 for the same hull value and insurance limits.
A number of carriers would not even quote me in the P Skymaster.
The best quote came from Sky Smith who was also very helpful in sheparding me through the process of finding the required school and instructor.
I purchased the Skymaster for the "safety" of the second engine in IMC over mountains, a common occurrence here in NW Montana. I have owned the airplane for 3 months, and have yet to fly it due to the extensive work done on the plane. I should be flying it tomorrow (fingers crossed).

I am looking into for my company to buying a Riley super skyrocket.

1. Has anyone been insured in this aircraft?

2. How much

3. How much time did the pilot have?

4. We are looking at either a New mooney or the Riley any thoughts?

Thanks,

SC

iNSURANCE
 

Under the search function, type in INSURANCE, there is a load of info regarding cost experience etc.

You are on a Skymaster web page and you ask the question...what we think about a Skymaster riley vs a Mooney. What do you think the answer will be. Yap!!! your right..The Skymaster.

Cheers
Jerry
N34EC (Riley):D :D :D

Funny thing Jerry I concur.............

Ok. There are no other posts to these questions.

1. How much can I expect to pay for a riley super skyrocket for insurance?

2. Can a pilot with 400hrs with No multi get insured?

Thanks

Sc

This is in reply to the note from sc.

You should get your muti rating before insuring the twin.
2-3 days of training will suffice. Then you will have to attend Skymaster school. Then you can get insur. The issue of Rocket v. other Skymaster is irrelevent except as far as it affects hull value. See my earlier post as to insurance costs.

As to Mooney v. Skymaster, I am in a good spot to respond because I own a 231/262 Mooney and a P337. I love the Mooney in most every way. It is almost as fast as the Skymaster, it is much cheeper to fly and keep, the weeping wing de-icer is far superior to the boots, hot prop, etc.. and the Skymaster is limited to 20,000 ft when the converted Mooney is cert to 27,000 feet, but you have to strap on a mask over about 18.
However, I fly over mountains at night and in clag. The Skymaster is wonderful as a safe twin. The pressurization is also nice. The Skymaster is easier to fly and heavier with a slower wing therefore more stable in turbulance. I also am learning to love the Skymaster. The Skymaster is staying and the Mooney is for sale. Enough Said.

Thanks.

Personally I have my Comm SMEL Instrument and CFI, II
An idea that my bosses came up with is that I would get my MEI in the riley, get certified to teach in it, and then give them their multi training in it. What do you think? Currently they own a new SR22 which is really cool however no deice no flight above 17k.
Do you know if you can get the "TKS' system for the P337?
btw im in Colorado.

When I was shopping for the Skymaster I spent some time checking out whether the weeping wing was possible for a Skymaster even on an experimental basis. Simply put, it is not. You are stuck w/ boots, hot plate, etc.
As far as your practical situation re: the Skymaster and insur etc, I got my twin rating in a conventional twin so I am legal in such. If you get your twin rating in the Skymaster, you are limited to the centerline thrust. Frankly that is not a big deal for me, I don't care to fly a conventional twin, however both the twin rating and an approved Skymaster school were required before the insurer would cover me. Also finding an approved instructor for the Skymaster in my area was a problem. All in all I am satisfied w/ my choices. Make sure you find a Skymaster w/o too much deferred mantenance. I bought one from a former member of this site w/ low time engines and supposedly a clean machine. I have spent 60k+ since I bought the bird. Much of that was planned upgrades but at least 20k was unplanned fixes for deferred maintenance.

Thanks for the reply.
I would like to get your thoughts on e one aspect of this venture.

1. I am a CFI,II with Commercial SMEL Instrument Licenses. What we are considering is that I would get my MEI and would then get certified to teach in the Riley and then provide the necessary instruction for both of my bosses. What do you think?

2. Would it be better to have them go through the training from some one else? The reason why I ask this is that they are probably going to have to have me fly with them for aprox 50 - 100 hours as per insurance requirements and if we could start them training ASAP then this would greatly reduce the time that they would need. This would speed up the training process and they could train at their own pace. I don’t really care either way as long as they are going to be safe pilots.

3. I now that this is a vague question b/c you don’t know my level of training ability. However, say that its the same as the 337 school after I am done there getting certified to teach in it

I think you should be discussing these questions with your insurance agent, they are really insurance questions. Scott Smith, 800-743-1439, is very familiar with 337 insurance, if you need a good agent.

If you can make the insurance work, I think you can make the rest of your plan work. But remember it will take some hours to get an MEII starting from SEL CFII. You will need to be an instrument multi instructor to give the proper training to the owners for them to get a MEL Instrument.

Kevin

I am not sure of legal requirements and insurance requirements for your situation. I am also unfamiliar w/ the abbreviation, SMEL. However, as to the practical issue of yourself getting certified and then teaching your bosses my input would be "no sweat". I think the Skymaster is both easy and a pleasure to fly. It is much easier to fly than the Mooney. I can spend an hour fine tuning the engines/ props as I fly, but it is not necessary. As one is learing one can certainly err on the side of running rich and no harm is done. If you can get insurance, and I am sure you can, than I think your plan for your bosses is great.