One VERY good reason for owning a 337!
 

Imagine yourself flying along in CAVU skies at FL190 above IMC conditions below you at 10,000' when all of a sudden one of your 337's engines develops a problem necessitating shutting it down, feathering and securing it. Not too much of a problem. You'd inform ATC of the 'problem' and seek the nearest airport, hopefully in VFR conditions and land. Now imagine yourself in a single-engine P210 at the same altitude and your engine has a catastrophic failure. This happened in November, and it's a chilling accident report to read, seeing that the pilot did everything pretty much right... up to the end.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...24X01867&key=1

If that link is confusing, or doesn't work right, just go to the NTSB site and look up the following:

NTSB Identification: IAD05FA012
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Friday, November 12, 2004 in Paint Lick, KY
Aircraft: Cessna P210, registration: N6539P
Injuries: 1 Fatal.

File this one in the "I'm glad I've got TWO" file.

SkyKing

That is a very sad transcript....

The guy had plenty of altitude, but no vac for his instruments in IMC.

Since he was circling down from 7000 to the 1000 ft field elevation, with a 600' AGL ceiling, he was in the absolute worst possible situation - IMC, turning, no vac instruments... with a breakout at the very very last second. The probability of maintaining directional control under those conditions had to be almost impossible. A perfect case for a BRS Chute... or a second engine.

Had he had a GPS, (it did not say) he might have been able to maintain control by watching altitude, and maintaining a GPS based heading/decent..... but if not lined up nearly perfect at breakout - still facing a crash landing.....

If all else failed, in the absense of any other possible solution, except CERTAIN death, I have heard of pilots using a deliberate stall/spin, to keep the airplane over the airport until breakout, then quickly attempted to stop the spin, and land....although the success of that manuever is one of great controversy, and very, very risky.

Apparently, in the old old days, some pilots would use a diliberate stall/spin to descend through the clouds, break the spin upon cloud breakout and land... In theory, it would keep the plane from overspeeding, and coming apart, as well as provide a somewhat predictable recovery once ground was spotted... There were several articles about this published this past summer in the flying rags.... I think Flying and/or Plane&Pilot... Definitely worth the read.. I don't recall the typical altitude to recover from this maneuver, but it is certainly WAY more than 600' AGL... Probably more like 2500' AGL. If the airframe survives.

Anyone else have any thoughts on this situation??

I don't know how he was equipped, but it does seem like a good moving map would have done a lot to keep him oriented with respect to the airport. Interpretting the controllers location reports would have been much simpler. Just seems like circling down over an airport on a moving map would lower the workload somewhat. Of course, if you can't control the airplane (loss of vacuum?), none of this matters.

It's difficult to second-guess this 'preliminary' NTSB report, and not knowing all the factors. But since the pilot elected to follow east-west course lines in an oval through the descent over the airport, I'm suspecting he was down to needle, ball and airspeed. However, at one point he states he's over the airport... at a time when it appears he's IMC, so maybe he did have a GPS/moving map. In any event, the freeway was right off his right wing - and that would seem to have been his best bet without too much maneuvering: basically a straight-in shot with minimal forward glidespeed. Then, on the other hand, there was probably a 400B autopilot on board this P210, or an equivalent, so there was another opportunity to control the plane, as it appears he still had sufficient reserve electrical power from the battery after the engine quit.

SkyKing

re: the autopilot ... I wonder if it could have been used. Doesn't the 400B use the attitude indicator for pitch & bank info? Also, heading would come from the DG (or HSI) - either the needle or heading bug. If these were conventional vacuum driven instruments I think the autopilot might not have been able to help him.

I think the cheapest, best alternative is to have a Plan 'C'.....

For $2000 - I have considered placing a Dynon EFIS (www.dynonavionics.com) in the panel (placarded for reference ONLY!)

It uses a battery backed up display, and Solid State Sensor based AI.... You could ignore the Pitot/Static capabilities, as they would not be certified to attach to your system....and symply have the AI for a Total Failure backup system only...

When the panel goes dead like it did for this guy, and you have no other options.... I would be more than happy to rely on a non-certified EFIS for another chance to walk away...

I'm running a Dynon EFIS.... LOVE LOVE LOVE IT!!!!

Did you do a form 337 on it, or are you just 'trying it out...'

If you did, is there any way I can get you to send me a copy for my avionics tech?

I spent considerable time looking at it, and similar system while at OSH this year... it was sitting on the table running on battery... when you picked it up and moved it, the AI was incredibly responsive to my every move... It may not be certified, *and we all know why* but it was darn sure a great backup (ahem..) to the certified equipment on board. In the case of this P-210 incident... it would have saved his life for a miniscule $2000

How many people have lost their lives because companies like this cannot/won't certify their products over fears of lawsuits from crash liability concerns??

We can all afford $2000 - but we all probably think twice about $25,000-$30,000 for a certified system.. If you don't think so, take a look at the Garmin 296.... more capable than a lot of indash systems - but portable and uncertified...

The price difference from portable to in-dash is all to cover anticipated liability from future claims.

Is it true you can install a Dynon EFIS permanently in the panel by simply marking it "reference only?" I find that kind of hard to believe. If something's permanently connected to the bus, I'm pretty sure you're going to have to get an approval (at least a 337, if not a DER report).

If you want to use this EFIS, I think you're going to have to make it a "portable" installation to keep it legal. An avionics shop should be able to answer this question easily (vs. my guess).

Richard, were you successful in getting the FAA to approve this?

Still working on an approval. I don't think most avionics shops will tell you that a referance only will work. I've done it a few ways. Just know what you are doing before you venture into installing instruments that are "unapproved". If you do install one for referance only.... I can tell you. You won't use if for referance after the first 30min. Your originals will fade in the background. The Dynon EFIS has made managing the flight so easy, and so much more enjoyable..... Here's a picture of the new panel as soon as I couple the autopilot to the EFIS.

Nice panel Richard!, there is a very nice and cheap EFIS from Blue mountain avionics, that cost about $2400 and is battery backup. Here is attach a picture from a friend of mine's Seneca II, from the Blue mountain webpage.http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/elitesupport.php

Wow
 

Is that slick or what?

Keven
________
Washington Medical Marijuana Dispensaries

NICE! Bet he LOVES his too.

Wow, is right! Incredible instruments -- the performance and the price. The FAA should change its ways and REQUIRE a product like this one in all IFR aircraft as a backup, rather than retain the barriers which currently prohibit its use in certified aircraft.

I went to both websites and wanted to share a couple of observations. The Blue Mountain unit is now packaged in a standard 3 1/8" round package, not the square package seen in the link above. Its price is $2,795 (not $2,400), which is a steal considering that it also has a GPS/moving map (there's a cool show at http://www.bluemountainavionics.com/...slideshow.html showing possible displays). The Dynon unit is $500 less, without the GPS/moving map.

Thanks to Pat, Richard and Jose for reminding us of these units. And to Skyking for bringing this incident to our attention.

Ernie

what is really amazing is the pricing.
I looked at replacing my old HSI, earlier this year, and the price for the unit, installed was over $15K. That's no GPS, just a slaved HSI.

These things, when you look at the picture of the Seneca, are more useful, and substantially cheaper. I wonder what installation costs were for the Seneca. Was it done under a 337?? Must have been, because these are not certified units. No STC's. Wow. I really like the little unit in the Seneca. I could use that.

Larry:

Installation for both units seem to be a snap: power leads and pitot/static plumbing are the only connection (in one the magnetometer is external, so that's one more connection). The reason for such few connections is that most everything is inside the housing. So the real issue is fitting the box in your panel and the 337 approval (or some clever way under the panel in a non-permanent way, without connections to the bus, so you can argue that it's like a hand-held GPS). I like the approval route better, and would like to think that you can find a sensible and courageous FAA guy who'll sign it.

Ernie

Carlos, the Seneca`s owner, had the unit installed 20 months ago, and he has had a hassel free operation, considering that he flies a lot!!!. Remember the unit shows altitude and speed all the time, plus more Nav information I can not recall.

A few years ago I simply bought a backup AI. Not as good as the EFI, but cost 2500 installed in those days - the common electrical type - works fine and gives me a nice feeling of security. if the backup goes belly-up, I have the electrical and it's certified, etc.

Talked with Sheila at Blue Mountain. The EFIS lite is not yet shipping. She also says the US FAA will not permit non-certified instruments in a certified airplane. Courageous FAA guy reminds me of Herb Harney who waited nearly 7 months for his approval paperwork on a Garmin 530 install. :confused:

It does not sound promising, for us. :(

We all understand the need to 'prove' these instruments are reliable and safe... So I understand the FAA's resistance to use of non-certified instruments....

But it is truly sad that (as in the case of the P210 pilot) that people cannot legitimately aquire this capability - if even under a 'Not for IFR Flight' restriction. At least then, if the certified goes bad - they have 'something' to bring them home... Like I said earlier in this thread.... I'd love to have a non-certified instrument as a plan 'C' backup - because if the Vac and Electrics are gone - an internally battery backed unit like this could save your life. It's a shame that regulation, red tape, and the threat of legal liability claims have taken that away from all of us - or at least those of us who are afraid to violate the FAA regs.

In a commercial application - I totally agree. = must be certified.
In a private (certified or experimental) application - it should be your choice.

If/when you go to sell your certified - as long as the buyer 'knows' that the instruments are non-certified - it should not be a problem. Why deprive the public of this new technology? Why make it so expensive from the certification process that the general aviation community can no longer afford it? It's a shame.

It is interesting, you can get a Sierra Flight Systems version of the Chelton EFIS, for experimental aircraft, for $24K. The same thing, certified, is $54K.

Faa Approved My Dynon Installation
 

I submitted for a field approval of a Dynon D10A on a 1975 FT337GP N1049D, the installation was minimal hassle and so was the approval. Yippeeeeeeeeee

Jack
________
Nexium attorneys

WOW - that is great news!

Can you share the paperwork, and the process used to add this?

my email address is pschmitz@starband.net

If it was approved for you - I will definitely go that route.

Thanks for writing!!

Pat

Oh, me tooo.
ljb@safetyservicesinc.com
and where did you mount it?

$?
 

Jack:

I'll be rude . . . how much was the install and cost to get it field approved?

Thanks,

Keven
________
Fix Ps3

Dynon D10A Installation
 

Well guys in this day of modern technology I can't email the paperwork, but would be glad to send a paper copy.

Aside from the obvious cost of the unit itself, I spent $53.00 with aircraft spruce. Have an AP/IA so signed the form myself, took a day to do the paperwork and the install.

My email address is wybenga@excite.com

Good luck

Jack
________
ANALBOMBOM

You are the man. I have one to go in and will be contacting you for guidance.

George

If you can fax me a copy to 563-922-3033 - I'll convert to .pdf file for you to share with others??

I have my D10A, and wiring harness.... but not installed - yet!

Dynon Installation
 

Pat

I will FAX you the document in the morning

Thanks

Jack
________
BUY E CIGARETTE

Dear Sirs,
I have seen the Dynon EFIS installed in two certified aircraft here at Birminham, AL. Both installs were done by the MERCURY FBO under their repair station, with direct approval from the local FSDO.
Placards reading "Not Primary, For Reference Only" were required, as well as the retention of a TSO approved conventional attitude indicator in full view of the pilot. The approved indicator was to the side of the EFIS which was directly infront of the pilot at the top of the panel. A form 337 was required and filed.
I will attempt to obtain the form 337 and post it, as I intend to add EFIS to my 336 as soon as funds permit.
Regards
James T Grant

Ok - I have the Fax, on the Dynon Approval - I can hardly believe It!! Add that to the excitement of the new Garmin 396 Announcment w/ XM Sat Weather/Radio, and we can have some great capabilities in our aircraft for a 'reasonable' price once again!!

I will email this back to you Jack (for distribution with others)
If you give me the release - I will gladly share with others!!

Thanks for sharing!!

Pat (soon to be an EFIS User!!)

Dyno 337
 

I intented it for distribution, so go ahead...just take the parts list with a grain of salt

Jack
________
EXTREME Q TEMPERATURE SETTING

Ok -

Anyone who wants it... Send me an email and I'll forward it on!!

Thanks Jack!

My address is pschmitz@starband.net

Happy Flying!

What would really be nice is if someone who has access to a picture of an installation post it here. Thanks.

Jim, I will take a picture this weekend...but I didn't know you could post attachements on this site

Thanks

Jack
________
AlannaThomas live

You can paste the picture into your response here...
Kevin (sysop) just prefers that we 'not' do that too much (just special occasions), as it takes a lot of disk space... I think this occasion is special!

Pat

I agree. Thanks!

Jim Rainer

N1049D Panel
 

Here is the panel without the plastic cover, if anyone has a drawing for the metal panel, it can save me a lot of effort

Jack
________
BONGS

This is the Blue Mountain efis lite installed in HP-669

I am curious to see if any other members succeeded in applying for approval on the EFIS installation?

I asked my mechanic shortly after receiving the 337 forms, and he tells me he requested approval from the visiting FAA inspector, but the inspector said this is not approved. When he was shown the paperwork - he said he would look into it..... that was 3 months ago.... and I have never heard another word...

Frustrated (unused) EFIS owner....