Specific steps to replace (outer) side windows - de-rivet?

[n86121]

Good evening all,

I am seeking answers and truth BEFORE disemboweling the interior of my 337.
To determine if said disemboweling is even worth the hassle in the first place.

The T337 has double side windows, inner and outer.

QUESTION: Can anyone give step-by-step instructions/guidance/photos on replacing the OUTER side windows on a T337?

Yes, yes, I know
you pull the inner trim fairings and the inner windows pop right out.
All well and good. That's easy.
As 'they' say, "Duh..."

BUT....I am CONTEMPLATING replacing the outer windows, which are surrounded by scary rivets.

While attempting to polish same, it appears there are vertical 'frame' pieces front and back of each window that simply unscrew. By (simply) removing those pieces do the outer windows (with frames) pop out, or must one de-rivet the 10,000 scary rivets to get the outer windows out? (And therefore same to put back in, then repaint, then...etc.)

Maybe same for P337?

Then of course, any thoughts on the installing outer windows into their 'frames?'

Muchos gracias 'thrasher amigos,

[JAG]

Hi David,
I will send some pics after the weekend on the side windows. There are a couple retainers that you have to drill out the rivets on to get the two aft side windows out. Not as bad as you might think though. Some of the retainers unscrew, but my memory serves me, there are a couple retainers that need to be drilled out to remove easily between the two windows. I have removed mine, and just waiting on installing at the moment since the temperature in South Texas is pretty hot - and it is nice to have the windows out as I finish the work and wiring on the inside of the cabin. I am replacing all the windows in the aircraft.

Jeff

[B2C2]

I am also interested in working on the windows on my 1969 T337D. The outer windows seem pretty good, but I have some crazing on the inner pilots side window and there is a leak between the inner and outer windows in a few spots so there are streaks in there from the occasional outdoor rainstorm the plane gets (its usually hangared) dragging dirt into that space. What is the seal arrangement between the inner and outer windows and can this be repaired by just removing the inner windows? Also can you confirm that its a simple matter to remove the inner windows, maybe post some pictures of the inner trim removed. I am thinking of replacing the inner windows and replacing the seals at the same time for my next annual "while your at it" expense.

[hharney]

http://www.337skymaster.com/messages...hlight=re-furb

Lots of info on the windows in this thread, let me know if you have any other questions

[B2C2]

i looked through this, but cant completely figure out the answer to my questions from the posting. Is it possible, on the 1969 T model, to remove and replace the inner windows and seals without drilling out external rivets? If it is where do people suggest getting the replacement inner windows and seals?

[hharney]

Originally Posted by B2C2

i looked through this, but cant completely figure out the answer to my questions from the posting. Is it possible, on the 1969 T model, to remove and replace the inner windows and seals without drilling out external rivets? If it is where do people suggest getting the replacement inner windows and seals?

You should be able to remove the inner window with just one small piece removed by drilling out rivets and this may not be on all windows. The rubber seal is placed around the plate window and then the window is held in place by the channel and the seal is pushed against the outer plate window. Should be pretty easy to do. The new inner window with the seal around it fits in place where the old one comes out. There may be one riveted plate that might have to be removed on some inner glass but that is really easy to drill out the rivets and then just pull new ones in. You should only need to remove one piece off one side and pull the glass up out of the channel.

Basically just remove only what is necessary to remove the old window and then put the new plate in with new seal just like you removed the old plate

The first photo shows the finish with the new inner glass in place with the rubber seal and window in fixed channel
The second photo shows the inner glass out and the channel that secure it in place
The third photo shows everything out including a small plate that is riveted

[B2C2]

thanks for the clarification. Where did you source the seals and the new windows?

[n86121]

In may 1969 T337D, you

1. Pull out the side trim pieces, and
2. The INNER windows just have rubber seals around them*.
3. The seals just sit in simple press-in frames.

No riveting, no hassles.

For turbo/double windows you want the window rubber gasket to be non-symmetric, to maximize the distance between inner and outer window. Otherwise with vibration they will rub / haze at point of contact.

[hharney]

Originally Posted by B2C2

thanks for the clarification. Where did you source the seals and the new windows?

Great Lakes Aero Products http://www.glapinc.com/cart/

[B2C2]

awesome thanks for the help. I have a 1969 T337D so that's perfect. I am going in for annual in two weeks, assuming no major issues, I will tackle this as a "while you're at it".

[n86121]

With this annual, I've pretty much decided to go with clear OUTER windows.

Just need to confirm same as front and door as already as done more recently.

Reasons are:

0. BY generally parking facing north, angle of incidence on windshield is better than tint!

1. While 'smoked' might look cool, loss of light & contrast at night and IFR

2. Except for pilot side and door, other windows are under wing and shielded from sun.

3. Inner windows are easy to pop in/out in just a few mins.

3a. Inner windows under wing may be just fine. We will see.

3b. Easy to redo INNER windows later on

3c. Inner windows non-structural, so can buy any old UV plastic anywhere: $25 for fancy UV + tint vs $200 per window

3d. Can change INNER to tint or clear easily and inexpensively as desired at any point

[n86121]

All original side windows from 1969.

Windshield was replaced to match,. circa 1989. It's still fine. Tied down facing NORTH.

Originals were apparently green tint....

...So I guess I will be going green tint!

D

[n86121]

As is my nature, I keep drilling down until I hit bedrock.
Then I go a bit further until the drill breaks.

Then I grind the bit into the rock for a while too.
Then I throw away the damaged tool

Then find the next thing upon which to obsess until exhausted.

==========

It seems pretty much any basic acrylic blocks pretty much all of the UV anyway.
UV a the shorter end of the visible spectrum around 400 nm and below (nanometers!).

So what is protecting your interior is modern materials chemistry more than anything else.

---

Gray tint blocks flatter across the spectrum of visible light: Reduce all wavelengths X percent.

Green tint blocks brings green light down faster, the most 'visible' part of the spectrum.
Also may knock UV down faster than gray (at the same transmissivity).
While allowing reds and yellows to show through better, such as perhaps dusk and dawn.

IR (heat) is at the red is at the long wave end of the spectrum.
Whether gray or green knocks down more IR is hard to determine.
Probably the same.

So the decision seems to boil down to fashion choice.

============

For endless more fun reading on the topic:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-SdRBMghHul...ansmission.jpg

The Visible Light Spectrum

Color Wavelength (nm)
Red 625 - 740
Orange 590 - 625
Yellow 565 - 590
GREEN 520 - 565
Cyan 500 - 520
Blue 435 - 500
Violet 380 - 435

Uses for Different Tints:
Following is a handy tint guide for choosing sunglasses. ...
Green tints filter some blue light and REDUCE GLARE,
while offering HIGH CONTRAST and visual SHARPNESS.
Shades of green also tend to REDUCE EYESTRAIN in bright light.

source https://www.verywellhealth.com/sungl...matter-3421920

----------

The three most common (SUNGLASS) tints are gray, gray-green, and brown.
Gray (neutral density filter) is recommended because it DISTORTS COLOR LEAST.
Some pilots report gray-green and brown tints ENHANCE VIVIDNESS,
minimize scattered (blue and violet) light,
thus ENHANCE CONTRAST in HAZY CONDITIONS

souce https://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pi...sunglasses.pdf

That will all be on the test.

[B2C2]

just thought id follow up and thank all who provided information on this window replacement. Annual didn't turn up any major problems so I ordered the parts from great planes and my mechanic installed the new pilots side window and seal. Job was exactly as described, no rivets needed to be touched and the new window looks great. Thanks again.

[n86121]

So far the side windows came out by de-riveting just between the rear and mid windows.
To remove brackets holding windows. - see photos attached.

The pilot emergency and vent windows will require more de-riveting from their frames.

Much needed improvement!