MTOW OF 4,400 lbs (EUROCONTROL FEES)

Living near Paris I'd like to buy a Skymaster, ideally turbo and pressurized. There is a slight problem : while you fly IFR in Europe you are being looked after by Eurocontrol (i.e. radar control). That is actually a free service as long as your aircraft's official MTOW doesn't exceed 1,999 kilogrammes (approx. 4,400 lbs).

As far as I know this basically limits my purchasing options to the C337 C and D models, the turbo and pressurized versions being too heavy. (I was told that the Eurocontrol fees would add more than 40 $ per hour (!) to the cost of flying...)

So my question is simple : Is it possible to have a turbo / pressurized Skymaster without exceeding 4,400 lbs MTOW?

Thanks a lot in advance to anybody who might be able to help me.

[Bob Cook]

Chris

Remove one engine and recertify <G>.

Seriously, the certification determines the gross weight and that is what all airtraffic services use. There is no simple way to "short" the system that I can see. You are going to be limited. The P210 is the only alternative that I can think of that would give you the performance of the 337 but........... one engine. The one you really want is the O&N turbine conversion... now that is the "spaceship" for Europe.

Bob



Bob

[SkyKing]

Chris,

I believe if you will dig into the so-called "Eurocontrol" you might be surprised to find that this is being administered under the United Nation's ICAO ... under the UN's edict to "direct and control ALL human and natural resources". Be that as it may, since the POH empty weight for the P337 is around 3176 lbs, perhaps you can find a loophole in these Eurocontrol/ICAO regs to get around it. Conceivably, you could fly with four people (based on 170#) and still have room for 544 pounds of fuel, which would bring you to 4400 MTOW. I haven't read these regs, but insofar as reading any laws, you will find that what you're told and what the law actually says to be two different things.

BTW, the United Nation's ICAO proceeds on the basis of 'gradualism' ...and don't beleive for a moment they're not desirous of spreading their globalist "sustainability" to literally every endeavor... and every corner of the globe.

SkyKing

[SkyKing]

Forgot to add... part of the 'gradualism' was getting our long-standing Aviation Weather Service to 'adopt' the new METAR nomenclature, which is the UN's ICAO in action... part of the conditioning for the next step here in the USA: Privatization and USER FEES. This needs to be nipped in the bud.

SkyKing

[Paul Sharp]

My 1967 Turbo model has a 4300 lb. gross weight limit.

[Dave Underwood]

Easy depending on the registration. The owners of most UK registered Senecas have restricted the MTOW with the CAA to a MTOW of 1999 kilos. You then register that fact with Euro Control and then no charges.

I have an N registered 77 FT337G and am in the process of trying to do the same thing and based on early reaction it should be ok. In my plane the reduction is only 300 lbs and no one checks anyways or so I am told. Can you imagine a ramp check that includes a weight check?

I don't want to pay Euro Control - it is expensive enough to fly as it is.

I will let you know if you like.

Dear Paul,

This was real help for me. At least I now know that it's possible.

Thanks again,

Chris

Originally posted by Paul Sharp
My 1967 Turbo model has a 4300 lb. gross weight limit.

Dear Dave,

Thank you very much for your help. You are absolutely right : flying is already expensive enough. And yes, please, keep me posted. I'd also be quite eager to have your opinion on the average hourly cost of flying this type of a/c.

Thanks again,

Chris

Originally posted by Dave Underwood
Easy depending on the registration. The owners of most UK registered Senecas have restricted the MTOW with the CAA to a MTOW of 1999 kilos. You then register that fact with Euro Control and then no charges.

I have an N registered 77 FT337G and am in the process of trying to do the same thing and based on early reaction it should be ok. In my plane the reduction is only 300 lbs and no one checks anyways or so I am told. Can you imagine a ramp check that includes a weight check?

I don't want to pay Euro Control - it is expensive enough to fly as it is.

I will let you know if you like.

[Quentin]

Dear Dave,

I flight on a 337 in Paris and I hardly try do find how to reduce MTOW under 1999kg, Eurocontrol fees are too expensive.
This 337 is N-registered, N337SL, could you help me ?

Gratefully yours,

Quentin

[Dave Underwood]

Quentin:
1) find out who in France administers Euro Control Registrations and exemptions.
2) Ask around as many Seneca owners have done it already.
3) Your maintenance supplier may have already done it for others.
4) Call who ever it is and tell them the aircraft is now certified at 1999 kgms.
5) Ask who you need to call in Euro control to make sure they get that same message and promulgate it throughout Euro Control.
6) Go fly.

I was not asked for any paperwork and did it over the phone here in the UK.

Blue Skies - D

[Quentin]

Thank your four your quick answer.

I called Euro Control in Belgium, they asked me an AFM (Air Flight Manual).
Unfortunately, ours certify the 337 for 4620lbs although we need 4400lbs for MTOW.

Our maintenance supplier has three other 337, someone under 1999kg, someone not.
But these 337's MTOW were already reduced before he acquired them.
This is the same for the other 337 pilot I know, he bought his 337 with an already reduced MTOW.
So everybody I know can't help me.

So I think I should get an amended Air Flight Manual and that's why I thought a STC was necessary.

Do you have any idea to modify this AFM ?


Thank you very much.


By the way, we landed at Westray this summer, 15nm north of Kirckwall. 530m, Short.
And then Inisomre in Aaran Island, west of Galway, Ireland. 490m, really short.
And we ferried a Twin Comanche from San Francisco to Tahiti, by Honolulu and Kiritimati island.

[Dave Underwood]

A couple of suggestions I suppose:

1) Have you Maintenance firm generate a Form 337 to lower the MTOW on your aircraft.
2) Send them a copy of that 337 minor modification form to Euro Control.
3) You could call the New York FISDO who look after Europe and have a general discussion with them as they may have an alternate and better way of doing the same thing.
4) If that doesn't work, talk to one of the DER's on the forum and ask them to write up a major mod and fill that in and submit that.

On the Form 337 - Minor Modifications form, I'm not even sure you would need to, but sending it to the FAA then registers the lowering of MTOW on the FAA's aircraft file should Euro Control ever want to check. Check with the New York FISDO.

Dave

[Quentin]

Thank you,

I will try with the 337 form with FAA.
I hope it will automatically shutdown the EuroControl Form.

I'll let you know,

I will fly from Bergerac to Paris wednesday.