Routine takeoff procedure

[Galvine]

Hello
I’m trying to develop a routine for takeoff. I’m new to a P337 ( turbo)

There is agreement that there is a drag penalty during gear transition. But really a significant issue if you lose an engine.

There is some debate about When to raise the gear etc.

There also seems to be agreement that most engine failures happen when changing power settings.

So one standard takeoff seems to be:

Climb at full power to 500 ft
Then raise gear, then flaps, then reduce to climb power settings ( similar to most twins, just at a higher altitude)

If in mountains, inhospitable terrain etc. Climb to maybe 1,000 ft and then same routine.

Others retract flaps soon after takeoff, Reduce power to climb settings at 500 ft or so, and then gear at 1,000 ft


I’m interested if there is a consensus among the forum readers.


Thx.

Greg.

[RandyArizona]

Mr. Galvine.
You have no aircraft listed, no airport / home listed.
I am assuming you are probably a flight sim'er.
Check online for a Skymaster POH for your "sim" aircraft.
On the outside chance you actually are a Skymaster owner.....
Check your Skymaster POH.
I doubt anyone here will put their neck out to tell you "how to operate" the aircraft. If they do, AND you follow that advice, AND bend aluminum.
Well, it is a litigious world we live in.
Have a good day.
Regards,
Randy

[Galvine]

Randy
N4CZ 1978 P337H
Based in Sioux Falls SD. KFSD
Never flown a flight sim except for Simcom in Florida many times.

looking for real world experience from actual skymaster pilots.
Very easy to add a disclaimer “this is what I do but I’m not a flight instructor “
Like other pilot forums do.

I’ll look elsewhere

Greg

[RandyArizona]

This is what I do...

I read the POH.

Regards,
Randy

[Galvine]

I agree.
I have read the POH.

Greg

[GearUp]

Hi Greg, let me be the first to welcome you!

IMO, this is the *best* place to ask that question, and I've learned a great deal of valuable info, that I doubt I would've found elsewhere, from the many nice folks on this site.

That said, I'm going to backpedal a little-- I could tell you what I do (and developed with another *very* experienced owner from this site), but it's specific to my plane and the mods on that plane, not to mention conditions at any given time.

For instance-- we've done the gear-door-delete mod, and from what I can tell, that greatly reduces the drag when cycling the gear. So, what I might do in my plane, might be a *really* bad idea for someone in another plane that was identical when it came from the factory.

Throw out some more details on your particular airplane, any mods and give this group a little time. The site doesn't get all that much traffic so people may only catch-up once in awhile.

--John

[bjornfb]

Greg,
I have a 76 P337 with intercoolers based at a fairly short runway, and that’s basically the procedure I use. The only difference in my procedure is that I pull back the power a bit at about 300’ for a couple miles then back to full power to continue climbing. I do that because there’s a noise sensitive area off the end of the runway and the Skymaster is pretty noisy at full power. So I pull the power back a bit, especially the rpm, level out to a slow climb over that area, then power back up, raise the gear above 500’, and climb to my cruising altitude.

-Bjorn

[mshac]

I would like to apologize for the previous unhelpful posts. Flying procedures are exactly what this forum is about. Any aspect of ownership is fair play.

No need to belittle or make false assumptions about a board member.

There are variables to consider, such as gear door delete mods, STOL mods, and of course your unique operating environment.

Tell us a bit more about your plane and we can discuss takeoff procedures with more clarity.

Oh, and Welcome Aboard!

[Galvine]

Thanks for the follow up.
I’m considered a low time Pilot to many here. I have 2,500 hours and flying a TBM past 15 years.
Getting back into piston twin mindset.
My P337H has the original gear doors and is basically stock
The POH has been helpful but ideas have changed somewhat since it was written 45 years ago about when to clean up the plane for example.
One paragraph mentioned to be at least 2 feet off the runway so the gear doesn’t hit during cycle. Awfully low to be cycling the gear with the Drag of those gear doors.
The TBMOPA forum was a great place to learn and become a safer pilot. Always flying, of course, by the POH!

Thx for the responses

Greg

[mshac]

As an old airline guy, "Positive rate, Gear up" is burned into my mind after having done it 1000's of times. I don't do it at my home strip though!

My private airport is 2785' with a 50' obstacle (tree line) and the end. My main concern upon committing to a take off is clearing that tree line.

As a result, I delay raising the gear until the aircraft is 50' AGL. The thought being that if I lose an engine, even prior to 50' AGL, I can still clear that 50' obstacle.

I don't have the POH in front of me, but the climb rate on a single engine DURING GEAR TRANSIT may be zero or even slightly negative for a couple of seconds when the rear gear doors are doing their air brake routine.

[patrolpilot]

Greetings, Galvine, and welcome to the forum! I have a '77G, and I'm a TBM 960 guy as well.

Originally Posted by mshac

As an old airline guy, "Positive rate, Gear up" is burned into my mind after having done it 1000's of times.

Like mshac, I'm also an old airline guy who lives by "Positive Rate, Landing Gear Up," including in the Skymaster. I'm also a guy who was trained at the Factory in both the 337G and the "P" in early '78. The "P" included classroom training that lasted several days and delved deep into takeoff performance. I still have my training certificate! This is precisely how the factory guys flew it and how they taught it.

Based on the POH "Amplified Procedures - Engine Failures," I initiate landing gear retraction with the positive rate of climb and at 80K. The likelihood of achieving a positive single-engine rate of climb below 80K is nil.

I've spent a lot of time refining my takeoff technique. The timing of the airplane being ready to fly, the 75K through 80K decision to fly, gear retraction, and flap retraction. My timing is such that as the airplane comes off the ground and achieves the 75K, I am tapping the brakes to stop wheel rotation and then making contact with the gear handle while confirming visually that I have a positive rate of climb___ the airspeed is at 80K as I achieve about 5° of pitch. As the gear starts up, the airspeed accelerates, and the airplane is at 90Ks as its landing gear clunks closed__ "Flaps, Up!"

Honestly, this description and timing, from being a speeding projectile to 50' AGL and then being an airplane in flight, is exactly what you probably are experiencing in the TBM you fly. You probably achieve 10° of pitch; the 337 will be less than that.

This is how I flew my airplane with the gear doors because the Factory taught me to fly it that way, and I continued to fly with it after the gear door removal. My decision to remove the gear doors was based not on the engine failure on takeoff but on the doors remaining extended after the manual extension. With that, they remain fully deployed, and the likelihood of successfully flying through engine failure while flying something like an instrument procedure is slim, in my opinion, as I've done it. Both times, both engines were operating, but the drag was significant.

I do not make any power reduction after takeoff. I run it at the certified 2800 RPM; there is no limitation on that. As a CFI, that is the greatest mistake I see someone make with simulated engine failure practice; they are reluctant to use the certified RPM. Be comfortable with it and use the maximum possible performance. My airplane's front engine is 300 hours over TBO, and the compressions and valve images are as pretty as the rear engine with its 700 hours. I also receive the Savvy valve analysis from my engine data upload, and those reports are outstanding.

[patrolpilot]

Galvine, my G, and the 960 I fly.

[Galvine]

Thanks for insight!

My TBM was an 25 yr old “A model” with an upgraded Garmin panel. Not as fancy as the Autothrottle/ Autoland features of the 960!

I did get spoiled with the Garmin GFC 600 autopilot. Doesn’t look like a newer digital autopilot is in the Skymasters future from the reading I’ve done.

Thanks again.

Greg

[patrolpilot]

I bet it is a very nice TBM; I don't know if there is a TBM that isn't nice!

Yes, unfortunately, I think the 337 is dead as far as a replacement AP goes.

[kbecker]

I fly a normally aspirated 337G. My caution is not to try to retract the flaps until the gear is fully retracted and the power pack is off. I tried this before and the electrical load from the power pack and the flaps combined popped the power pack breaker, leaving the gear doors partially open. I have subsequently installed a "gear in transit" warning light on the panel which illuminates until all gear doors close.