Question - How do you flightplan extended spousal cross-country flights?

n86121 · #1 11-05-23, 03:47 PM

Software suggests my RSTOL T337D
could get us DCA to DEN in ~7-10 hours, depending on winds.

It is about 7 hours door-to-door commercial.

Stressful, but "You leave the driving to them."

My wife's eyes start rolling at ~4 hours in the 337.

My main unknown is, "How many back-to-back legs would she tolerate, before destroying 30+ years of marriage?"

==========

OPTION #1 - GRIND X COUNTRY ALL IN ONE DAY?

In spring / summer we could leave early and get to DEN before nightfall.
Refreshed or exhausted?

OPTION #2 - BREAK INTO TWO DAYS?

Maybe plan two 3-4 hour legs the first day.
No specific destinations in mind, just go until tired,
Let Amex Platinum solve the logistics.

A fancy dinner and a good night's sleep in a swanky hotel,
then finish the next morning?

OPTION #3 - TRY IT SOLO FIRST?

Buy her an airline ticket and see who gets there less stressed?
If I get tired, or decide to turn around, less egg on face.

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QUESTION - How do you flightplan extended spousal flights?

Learjetter · #2 11-06-23, 09:50 AM

My spouse and I typically plan 3 to 3 1/2 hour legs, and we like to limit each flying day to 2 legs. We've done more than that, but it's tiring for both of us. We file and fly cross-country exclusively IFR, but do not challenge any weather. If I can't get there in two legs, we'll split it up into 2 travel days, and use up some of our hotel points to stay overnight somewhere. We sometimes refuel at non-towered airports, but try to refuel and remain overnight (RON) at towered airports. Normally, we like to travel on weekdays. So, if it was us, we'd pick Option #2, but make a FBO, hotel and car reservation where you plan to RON, say at Des Moines or Topeka or somewhere. By my quick math, you're looking at 11+30 flying time at 140 Kts average groundspeed, probably more realistic like 12+30 flying time including climb/descent and headwinds. So if it was me, I'd do a first-draft of a plan with something like

VKX-DAY (3+15), refuel, then DAY-PIA (2+30) and lunch, then PIA-DSM 2+00 (RON). The next day, we'd go DSM-LBF (3+00), refuel, then the final 1+30 push into Denver Metroplex (prefer CFO over APA).

Personally, I almost never go "direct destination" -- preferring to file/fly over or near major airports (just in case).

So it takes a lot longer than commercial air, and probably way more expensive, but 1000% more fun for both of us. I always take an extra day or two off work for these trips, to give ourselves an "out" if weather or maintenance tries to stop our progress (which it has, twice on one trip, even!). I think for us, the key is our flexibility--we don't ever plan something that means we absolutely HAVE to be at place X by time Y, and of course, we never travel without the all-important credit card which fixes a lot of issues! "The journey is part of the adventure!"

mshac · #3 11-08-23, 12:38 PM

I'd grab a couple of RT tickets. I love flying but anything over a 4-5 hour trip, I hop a jet. Not worth the expense and hours on the airframe, but as the Big Lebowski said, "Like, that's just your opinion man!"

CenterlineT · #4 12-06-23, 08:41 AM

A few years back we flew to Centennial with one fuel stop in a T210M. It took about 7 hours of flying and 30 minutes refueling and stretching etc..
She was fine as she normally reads the paper and dozes off. It was shorter flying back at 17k with onboard OX but it was the same. I have not flown the 337D on such a long XC so I am not sure. It is of course noisier than the 210 and it is a bit more cramped but it is a joy to fly it but I don't know how she will feel being a passenger.
I have flown commercial twice to KDEN since and I am not sure if I want to fly any of the two birds on such a long flight. Of course I am a bit grumpy waiting to board and going through the TSA maze at KDEN every time.
We have an eclipse chasing flight to Texas coming up in April and I will have to take one of the two birds (most likely the 337) and will report back.

B2C2 · #5 12-22-23, 03:59 PM

i have flown back and forth across the country 5 times in my T337D. I limit my hops to no more than 4 hours. I run LOP and have about 6-1/2 hours of fuel on board so plenty of cushion. Going west to east the first time I did it in two days of two hops. I now do it in two days of 3 hops then 1 hop. I spend about 1 hour on the ground between hops, eating, stretching etc. First day is tiring but Its nice to get there around noon on the second day. I have flown from LVK to MVY this way several times. On the way back it takes 5 hops due to winds. I watch the weather in the week prior and finalize my flight path at the time of departure, adjusting for weather. Once I am on the east coast, the plane is amazingly convenient. I have friends in MVY, family in SBY and AVL and can get to each in 2 to 2-1/2 hours or so. My partner is wiling to do these trips thankfully. I file and fly IFR but don't usually push the weather. On such a long flight you can go a long way off a direct path to avoid weather and it doesn't add much to flight time. I also plan to overnight at larger class D or C fields. If you do have a maintenance issue its much easier to get help and hotels are usually easy to get even at the last minute.

n86121 · #6 12-23-23, 10:22 AM

At 20 GPH total that is about 55% - 60% power LOP?

What MP, RPM etc do you set?

What do you get for average Indicated airspeed, at what altitude?

Mine is an RSTOL T337D.

A mechanic who used to maintain a bunch of them, including mine at the time,
told me my RSTOL flew noticeably more nose down at higher cruise than similar.

I have spent so much time (2,000 hrs) on shorter trips (<2 hrs mostly),
lower down (from 9k down to 'at or below 500'),
at so many power configs,
none stands out as optimal for long legs.

A few 3-4 hr trips at 11-12k, briefly higher (14k), for passenger (wife) comfort.

---

One of these days when I have nothing else to do....
I will record an actual performance table for my turbo RSTOL

Anyone else ever compared to 'book' for a turbo RSTOL?

B2C2 · #7 12-31-23, 12:41 PM

I also have an RSTOL kit installed. I don't pay a lot of attention to IAS typically. I usually cruise at 28 in, 2500 RPM, and 9.5gph. This should be around 72%BHP. I flight plan for 197 mph TAS at 17,000, 185 mph at 10K, and 170 mph at 5k. I find I usually come pretty close to those values in cruise. Crossing the mountains I usually fly at 17K ft. Once I am past the Rockies I usually fly around 10-12K ft. The onboard oxygen system works and I have pulse Ox units from mountain high aviation that are super stingy due to on demand delivery. With these I can fly back and forth across the country on one fill, although I bring along a spare cylinder just in case. Pulse delivery also makes it much easier on the sinuses.

n86121 · #8 12-31-23, 02:29 PM

Is that non-turbo?

My TCM engine chart (for turbo) says
about 12.2 gpm for 72%
Rich limit around 13gph lean edge around 11.3

9.5 gph on a turbo down around 55%

So yours is non turbo?

Or is that 'hard' LOP ops?
===

After 27 years w no engine analyzer,
next upgrade I'm thinking about is an engine analyzer.

But ...needs to be what, $12-15k of benefit to justify it?

mshac · #9 01-02-24, 09:07 PM

B2C2 doesn't adjust for altitude either. Puzzling. I'm as cheap as the next owner pilot, but there's no way I could operate on those numbers in my P337H.

He must be NA, but who flies NA at 17K? Maybe only because he's crossing the Rockies? What a mushy ride it must be up there NA.

Concerned about these figures.

B2C2, please elaborate!

n86121 · #10 01-03-24, 05:30 PM

Well, maybe B2C2 sets constant power at 9.5 gph per engine?

For normally aspirated that's probably all you CAN get above 10k?

Then, at that power setting, B2CS gets

197 mph at 17k
185 mph at 10k
170 mph at 5k

My turbo Cessna's manual says similar

65%=11.3 gph
194 mph 15k
183 mph at 10k
173 mph at 5k

But then if one uses the turbo...

75% = 12.6 gph (ROP)
216 mph at 20k
203 mph at 15k
194 mph at 10k
184 mph at 5k

B2C2 · #11 01-05-24, 08:18 PM

Its a turbo, so no change in settings up to 24k ft. MP and fuel flows are constant with altitude. Plane gets faster at higher altitude due to constant power. I have a chart of LOP power that I pulled that number from. I can re-check it but power is directly a function of fuel flow when LOP. all fuel is burned. I always cruise LOP. At current fuel prices its pretty easy to justify the GAMIs. I burn probably 5-6gph less flying LOP. My aircraft came with a JPI 760 and I set fuel flow LOP based on TIT which I hold under 1600F. CHTs are cooler than ROP

n86121 · #12 01-06-24, 10:03 AM

About 60% power?

I've got GAMI's I installed two years ago,
when TCM was backordered for injectors for months,
and I could buy a complete set of GAMIS shipped next day for about the same.

It's probably time I made the next leap, a insight G4 I think.

The EI CG series looks sexy, and is primary for everything, but about $20k installed.
BUT, it also introduces lots of places for single point failures / grounding as well.

We fly inline twins for redundancy which provides safety, as well as performance.

The G4 is only cert as primary for CHT and EGT, which is nice.

Everything else is advisory.
So maybe nice to know, but....

There is the price of the basic 'box' around what, $5k?

Then about $3k for the basic harness.

To add things like vibration, HP calc, add another $3k t to the harness.
Not sure the cost exceeds the benefit on those.

and maybe about another $3k too install it all?

Going to poke around the site a bit and see engine analyzer discussion

n86121 · #13 02-10-24, 09:37 AM

That will help inch me over the line to buy the engine monitor..

B2C2 · #14 02-10-24, 07:53 PM

the chart is embedded in my checklist doc that I use for the plane. I print these on heavy stock and fold them in the middle for my kneeboard. The formula that relates FF to %bhp LOP was from the Advanced Pilot Seminars course.

n86121 · #15 02-11-24, 04:16 PM

excellent, thanks!