engine failure after rotation

[birddog]

Two questions:
1) A buddy of mine just returned from initial training in a late model 337. The training stipulated that after rotation to "land the aircraft on loss of an engine if the gear was still down and you had runway remaining to land on". Just writing this down makes it sound like a questionable technique. Would you agree with this?

2) They were also training using zero flap take-off as standard. Does the aircraft not have better climb performance single engine with 1/3 take-off flap setting?
BD
________
BMW R65

[Jerry De Santis]

Question, why would you want to continue flight if you lost engine on rotation and yet can still put it down safely on the runway? In my book, that's the only technique.

Flight instruction 101. With engine out and safe landing can be done...do it!

Jerry
N34EC

[Ernie Martin]

Item 1

Yes, the manual makes it clear that in most cases of engine failure at take-off, discontinuing the takeoff is usually the best practice. It's certainly the case if there is adequate runway left to both land and stop the aircraft. Note my emphasis, since I assume that your term "runway remaining to land on" means long enough to stop.

At full gross weight, most Skymasters (certainly the normally aspirated ones) have anemic climb rates on one engine. In a one-engine-out-during-takeoff emergency, with insufficient runway available to land, it is critical to do things in the proper order and do them fast, but without mistakes. My drill is this:

a) Immediately go to best climb speed
b) Identify/verify bad engine
c) Take a second to see if the aux fuel pump fixes the engine*
d) Feather the prop of the bad engine**
e) Close cowl flaps of bad engine

After these steps, you have time to decide other things. The gear up or down is not terribly important (at 90-100 MPH drag with gear locked down is minor, and the extra drag of raising the gear may be counterproductive). Flaps can come up gradually (see item 2 below).

The asterisk on step c) is to identify this as an addition to the manual recommendation. In short, it's my idea. The aux pump may correct a failed mechanical fuel pump or a fuel vapor problem. The double asterisk on step d) is to identify this as a most critical step, because in the frenzy of an emergency it's easy to feather the wrong engine prop -- and then you're doomed. So I practice taking one extra second to absolutely, positively confirm which is the engine prop that needs feathering.

Item 2

The manual makes clear that takeoffs should be with 1/3 flaps. It reduces takeoff distance 10% and gives you a lower (better visibility) attitude on climb. Moreover, the manual also states that on a one-engine-out-during-takeoff emergency the flaps be raised gradually after feathering prop, another indication that 1/3 flaps should be used.

Ernie

P.S. On item 1, I have done both: put it down when I thought there was adequate runway left (I was wrong by 20 yards, with dire financial consequences) and kept flying (doing a go-around) on one engine when there was insufficient runway.

[birddog]

Obviously there can be a lot of variables to this scenario. So let me narrow that a bit.

You have checked take-off performance and the book says " safe flying can be done se"

Should the mindset be that i am going to make a landing out of this if if I havn't raised the gear (that was the deciding factor) or
continiue the take-off, fly the aircraft and execute a landing as soon as practicle.
Thanks for the input.
________
Oregon medical marijuana dispensary

[Ernie Martin]

Sorry, but I don't understand your question. Simply put, land if there's enough runway, keep going if there isn't. A corollary is this: keep the gear down, as a minimum, until there is no longer enough runway to land.

Ernie

[birddog]

Earnie, thats good stuff. Rotation was based on the book saying the aircraft can climb out on one engine and I can remain clear of terrain. My preferance.
On the other hand I'm not sure I could judge my stopping distance after rotation. Before rotation I would want to know If I had enough runway to abort and stop. Once I lift the nose I'm flying or I should have shut it down. Your experience with this is very helpful.
BD
________
637

[Ernie Martin]

The book doesn't actually say that about your airplane. In fact, what it gives you is climb rate performance. For a new (read: perfect) aircraft. Flown by a test pilot. You are taking that data and interpreting it to mean that you should keep flying. The book, on the other hand, perhaps recognizing that an older aircraft may have a bit more drag and a bit less engine horsepower, and that the pilot may be a little slow in feathering, tells you that discontinuing the takeoff is usually the best practice. Heed that advice, not the test data.

As to stopping distance, do a simple test. I took my old 337D to a long-runway airport, took it up 50 feet, brought it down and measured how much runway I used from shut-down to stop.

Ernie

[birddog]

Earnie, thanks for the input. Is this a great web site or what! I'm just starting out in the 337 so this is very helpful.
BD
________
DC MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

[birddog]

I mean Ernie. Thanks
________
HEAD SHOP

[Frank Benvin]

About three years ago-
1967 337b
two people on board
less than 1/2 tanks - aircraft has long range tanks
airport at less than 100 ft elevation temp approx. 65 degrees
I had a cylinder seperate on the rear engine. Not a sign of vibration Not enough runway to stop safely
Took off on runway 12 called the tower and told them I had a problem and they asked me what I would like to do. Asked for clearence to land on 07 Left gear down and landed on 07
I did not not shut the engine down it was still producuing power on 5 cylinders . I lost 1 quart of oil Peplaced the piston / ring and cylinder and flew her home.

Frank

[WebMaster]

Leave the Gear Alone

The book, and several accidents, have conclusively demonstrated that if you are flying single engine, and you cycle the gear, during the time that the gear is cycling, the gear reduces your climb by 250 FPM. Since climb is anemic at best, during the time you are cycling the gear, you will undoubtedly lose altitude.

There was an accident I remember reading about where, right after take off, single engine, the gear was raised. The plane crashed.

So, in the event of an engine failure, leave the gear alone. If you are at altitude, make sure you have plenty of altitude and time to get the gear down. If you are at take off, leave the gear down. If you have runway ahead, land. As kevin has said, it's better to go off the runway straight ahead at 20 MPH, than risk having a second failure.

[J.T.Grant]

Dear Sirs,
With regards to an engine failure before getting the gear up.
With the original main gear doors climb rate will reduce to near zero (or perhaps a slow descent) on one engine while the gear is in transit. If the gear doors are remove by way of the RT Aerospace deletion kit this will not be the case, and the climb will be virtually unaffected durring gear retraction. The kit also offers the benefit of a much simpler system and a quicker cycle time (approx half).
Please bear in mind that the flap setting many Pilots use for takeoff is a double edged sword. While is does reduce the takeoff speed and distance it also adds significant drag. This is generally not a factor twin engine, but may make all the difference when single engine. Most manuals for the 336/337 clearly state the reduction in single engine climb rate due to various flap settings.
I installed the Horton STOL kit on my 336 a few years ago, and found the takeoff performance with Zero flaps to be better than it previously was with Takeoff Flaps. Single engine climb for my aircraft also improved 100 Ft/Min under sea level 80 degree conditions (full fuel one pilot).
I believe that the best information available will be obtained by spending an hour or two finding the true performance of your own aircraft under various conditions and configurations.
I for one know that my 336 will takeoff (gross weight 80 degrees sea level) with the either the front or rear engine windmilling and climb at least to 1000 ft AGL at 350 and 250 ft/min respectively.
Good to know when the passengers are the wife and kids.
If any of you get any numbers on this please let us all know
Regards
James T.Grant

[big al 08]

rt aerospace door deleation makes all
the difference. after t/o se or me it just
climbs. no lethargic mushing(t/o many summers in flagstaff as 80 degrees @7k, raie the flaps and loose 3-4 100 feet and after the door kit nothing)nice!. flap setting make all the difference. on short fields doing go arounds with full flaps is almost
a desater every time and it take a little time to milk up the flaps. had so many close calls i now raise the flaps as the mains are touching, so when i need to
excellerate i do.

[birddog]

We simulated two engine failures (rear engine) after rotation as follows:
1) we used 1500' msl as the mda
2) max gross
3) No flaps
4) Gear down
5) blue line on climb out
6) 10 degrees C
7) 80 knot rotation speed

This aircraft is a Super Skyrocket with the Horton mod. We averaged 350 to 400 FPM. The gear door mod looks like a good adition.
BD
________
FERRARI 212 INTER SPECIFICATIONS

Is the only advantage to the gear mod a better climb out after engine failure?
Why not just keep your gear down until your at a safe altitude?
Don’t you give up some speed in cruse?
Isn’t there more cabin noise in cruse?
Don’t the doors help keep your working parts up in the belly clean?
What is the cost of this mod?
Who dose this mod? Can your A & P do it?

Just some questions that might come up!
Thanks
Cj