Skymaster ownership costs: 2015 edition

[JAG]

For my budget of $70k reserves for engines, I am basing this on a hybrid cost, as I have not yet decided on overhaul versus reman. $70k would just (may a little short) buy two remans (no R&R cost), but would certainly give me a comfortable budget for two good overhauls, and a little extra for extra stuff that comes up when changing out an engine (exhaust, baffles, engine mount recondition, etc). Like the last engine overhaul I just did on my Stinson - I almost spent 50% of my overhaul cost on new exhaust, baffles and the like on making the installation perfect.
Jeff

[edasmus]

I have looked back at my Excel spreadsheets and I can give you some idea of my numbers over the last several years. I cannot go all the way back to 2002 as that would require digging out an old computer but this should give you an idea anyway.

These numbers are total dollars spent on my 1973 C337G (non-turbo) per year. They include hanger, insurance, 100LL, and maintenance all combined in one number. The airplane has been paid for since 2002. I own the hanger and it's operating cost is about $2000/year. My insurance runs about $2300/year for $90,000 hull, $1,000,000 liability and $100,000/passenger (pretty standard policy). I burn 17 gal/hour (hobbs). If we pick about $5.50/gallon of 100LL and multiply by 17, we get $93.50/hour on average for gas. Anyway, subtract all this from the total dollars spent in any one year and you will be left with a pretty good approximation of the maintenance dollars spent in any particular year. Hope this helps....

2015: $18,688.59, 57.9 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $8,974.94
2014: $16,299.93, 32.9 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $8,923.78
2013: $18,817.52, 54.0 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $9,468.52
2012: $25,011.97, 76.3 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $13,577.92
2011: $13,407.81, 83.6 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $1,291.21
2010: $23,997.47, 86.4 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $11,619.07
2009: $32,270.33, 79.3 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $20,555.78
2008: $34,665.76, 96.4 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $21,352.36
2007: $24,132.48, 89.3 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $11,482.93


The year 2011 is low because there was no annual inspection that calendar year. My annual inspection cycles are 13 months (always signed off on the 1st and then I go to the last day of that month a year later) and then the plane is always down for at least a month during the annual inspection.

The years 2002 thru 2006, I owned the plane with partners and we had a system set up to charge hourly with assessments to cover the inevitable short falls. (The hourly rate was always way too low.) The first two annual inspections were large. Going on memory here, $21,000 the first year (mentioned in a previous post) and I believe $14,000 to $15,000 the second year but not certain on that one.

I have always told folks the airplane is about a $300 to $350 per hour airplane depending on whether it was a good or bad year. These numbers average about $315/hobbs-hour if you do the math.

I am not a mechanic. I read and study maintenance like crazy (big Mike Busch fan) and always have my nose stuck in the airplane during maintenance events, however I pay Lumanair Aviation Services at the Aurora Airport in Sugar Grove, IL to do 99% of the maintenance. They are an FAA and Cessna certified repair station and this is Chicago, IL prices. In other words, "high." My IA has been there 45+ years and he remembers when Skymasters were new. I feel good when he works on my plane. They have had some retirements there in the last year or two with the young ones replacing the old guys. I'm a little nervous about this but so far the supervision seems adequate and in all the years I have been flying the plane, I have never had a serious in flight issue so I seem to be getting what I pay for.

Also, I do not save for engine or prop reserves. I just pay as I go. If you are mechanically inclined and can perform the maintenance yourself under supervision of your IA, you can save big bucks. Parts can be expensive but the labor is way more expensive.

In my opinion, storing an airplane outside is a mistake and possibly a safety issue. These airplanes will leak water into places you don't want, critters are numerous, ultraviolet light, hot, and cold cycles are simply brutal on airplanes. I would strongly encourage a hanger. I'm done preaching on that.

Looking ahead in the future for this plane, the engines are now about 40 hours beyond factory TBO. My intention is to continue as long as I feel I can safely do so, provided I don't lose faith in the engines. So far so good. I figure to keep this airplane going for the long term will require someone (maybe me, maybe not) to invest at least $100,000. I'm guessing factory reman engines installed with props and ADS-B plus "odds & ends" will cost all that. My paint and interior are good but far from perfect. The panel is all King digital stuff with a GPS that couples reasonably well to the old Century III auto-pilot. Everything works (including the ADF) and I certainly do my best to keep it that way. I'm an old school guy. The G1000 panels are pretty but I don't want or need to fly behind one.

These airplanes, as mentioned in a previous post, are truly wonderful machines. Cessna had a great idea and executed it quite well in my opinion. They are however, an enormous commitment in time and money. If one is willing to put forth the resources, they will be rewarded with an outstanding airplane!

If you have anymore questions, I'll do my best to answer and hopefully I haven't screwed up any math too bad.

Take Care,

Ed Asmus N1873M

[YankeeClipper]

Ed,

Wow ... what an incredibly honest and detailed post. One rarely sees that much effort and openness on an internet forum. Thanks. Very helpful to say the least.

If I may ask, how much from those numbers do you (or does anyone else for that matter) suppose goes into landing gear maintenance?

[edasmus]

You're welcome! )

Actually the landing gear has been perfectly dependable and relatively painless. New rotors were pricey a few years back. I have not had any issues with the power-pack so its probably due for an issue. When we first bought the airplane, we replaced every fluid carrying line and that may have included the landing gear but I would have to check on that. All in all though (knocking vigorously on wood) the landing gear has been, relatively low maintenance.

[jchronic]

Followed this thread with much interest and I'll strongly second the replies/opinions on ownership costs (and on the airplane itself) and just add my two-bits. Like most, the airplanes are (still) reliable if properly maintained and, while not outlandish, it isn't cheap to do that - particularly as parts and Skymaster experienced mechs become harder to find. And rehabbing a poorly maintained airplane can run into huge money, even for a buyer willing to get his hands greasy.

When I acquired my 337D for my survey operation, I was in for about $125K counting the airplane, one overhauled engine, various other repairs, and a few mission-unique mods. Early on, I budgeted $90/hour for airplane maintenance (not including engine reserve). Over time and the learning curve I've raised that to $120/hour even though the plane has had most of the bugs worked out and I've had no major problems (as the man said, knock wood!). That budget has worked out pretty closely for an annual and a 100-hour inspection each year, plus fixing the little nit-noid things that inevitably crop up. Probably worth mentioning that the plane is hangared, pre-heated for winter ops, and flies pretty regularly; take away any or all of those factors and you may be asking for more problems.

Re the landing gear, have had no problems other than a couple of broken wires, but I have a super A&P who's anal about the gear (and everything else!). Each inspection (twice a year) the plane is jacked and the gear swung numerous times while he watches each component of it. But I'm familiar with other 337s we used prior to mine and others in the area that have had numerous gear issues. Again, spending some money on continuing maintenance is essential to minimizing bigger problems and expenditures down the road. And power pack overhauls are pretty big $$$.

Joe

[Ernie Martin]

Let me add my perspective after operating three (3) different Skymasters over the last 17 years. And, as you will see, I approach the issue from a rather different viewpoint.

Before I do that, one quick comment is that the landing gear has never given me a lick of trouble. I changed hoses once when the annual inspection indicated it, and that’s it.

My view on operating costs is that you should separate ownership costs out of the equation. Loan payments, insurance, hangar/tie-down, biennial transponder test, painting the aircraft, replacing windows, replacing the battery and much of the cost of the annual are there whether you operate the aircraft or not. I view these costs as overhead, and they are critical in deciding initially whether I can afford to buy the airplane.

But after I own it, I want to know what it will cost me for each hour of flight. So if I have a trip that can be done by car or airplane, at least I know how to compare costs.

So here are my numbers per hour with some based on 100 flight hrs per year:

Fuel @ $5.50/gal @ 23 gal/hr* -------------------- $126
Engine reserves @ $30K per OH every 1500 hrs ---- 40
$2K Maintenance between annuals ------------------- 20
Annual not including unpaneling -------------- 20
Propeller reserves and miscellaneous ---------------- 10

TOTAL ---------------------------- $216

Ernie Martin

_______________
* This may seem a bit high but I typically do one take-off per hour, so this includes excess (unleaned) fuel in the take-off and climb.

[YankeeClipper]

Ernie, Joe, more great input.

Joe, to clarify, were you saying 120/hr including the annuals?

Ernie, what kind of ship are those numbers for?