New Member & Purchase Question

[tomcomet]

Hello everyone. I am a brand new member and in the process of purchasing (hopefully) a 1977 F337G Reims build Skymaster up here in Canada. Everything was looking great until the pre purchase inspection yesterday when my AME discovered some pitting and signs of corrosion on the insides of the cylinder walls. The rear engine was worse than the front. Yikes!

This is a very low time SM with just over 1400 TTSN and very little flying time in the past 15 years. It has the original Rolls-Royce Continental IO-360-G engines so I was expecting to see some issues there BUT I was also hoping to squeak a few more years out before overhaul and then do them one at a time.

The rest of the plane is in amazing shape. 2 owners and logs back to day one. I guess I am just looking for opinions from some folks with real world experience flying the SM. Also, overhaul experiences and current rates. Yes, I have searched the site and read what is out there but some of the posts are pretty old now. Has anyone redone their engines lately? Cost?? How about corrosion issues and input there?

Any and all knowledge is greatly appreciated. I still hope to own a Skymaster one day. Just not sure now if this is the ONE for me...

[rmorris]

if you read my posts on the tpic, they ar a few months old...so pretty recent info. but to summarize:
My engines are TSIO-360AB (turbo), so costs will be a about 5Kish more than normally aspirated, assuming you do turbos at same time as rest of engine which is normal

You mention pitting, but what are the compressions? If compressions are still good, then maybe you can squeak out some time from them...also check closely for large chunks of metal in oil.

Total hours on the plane or engines is less important to how much they are flown...a plane with low hours that just sits will have more need for overhaul earlier than a high time engine which is flown often.

on costs...just did mine, and had almost everything go wrong that could go wrong...total with labor and parts to get off, overhaul all, and accessories, and put back on - just under $50K

factory reman costs were going to be around 38K, but they did not include turbo. so I went with third party (and was very happy with their service). In hindsight, I would have done the reman, because supposedly they do not reject a running engine core for any reason. By using third party, I had a number of high cost rejected items, like the crankshaft.

I would also recommend going with all new cylinders, camshaft, crankshaft if this is first overhaul in many years. it will give more peace of mind.

my guess is that you are looking (USD$) at around 40K per engine all in, but might be as low as 30K depending on the route you take...

[tomcomet]

Originally Posted by rmorris

You mention pitting, but what are the compressions? If compressions are still good, then maybe you can squeak out some time from them...also check closely for large chunks of metal in oil.

Compressions is good all around and so far no signs of debris in the oil. AME concerned due to low recent flight hours. He says as soon as the engines start being used more regularly they could start to eat themselves up quickly...

[rmorris]

with engine time since overhaul is so high (in number of years), negotiate as if they are full overhaul immediately
then once you have them, fly it like you own it...just keep close watch on compressions and oil at each change.

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by tomcomet

Hello everyone. I am a brand new member and in the process of purchasing (hopefully) a 1977 F337G Reims build Skymaster up here in Canada.

Which one is it and who is your AME?

Originally Posted by tomcomet

Compressions is good all around and so far no signs of debris in the oil. AME concerned due to low recent flight hours. He says as soon as the engines start being used more regularly they could start to eat themselves up quickly...

That's always a REALLY tough call. Those engines can clean up right after 10 hours or they can start making metal. It's a crapshoot.

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by rmorris

with engine time since overhaul is so high (in number of years), negotiate as if they are full overhaul immediately
then once you have them, fly it like you own it...just keep close watch on compressions and oil at each change.

Agreed. Sit down with the seller and discuss the borescope pictures. If he won't deal then you have to walk.

If you do end up owning it, fly it hard and fast for 10 hours then dump the oil and do another borescope.

[tomcomet]

Originally Posted by kilr4d

Agreed. Sit down with the seller and discuss the borescope pictures. If he won't deal then you have to walk.

If you do end up owning it, fly it hard and fast for 10 hours then dump the oil and do another borescope.

So you are telling me this kind of thing can"go away"...?

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by tomcomet

So you are telling me this kind of thing can"go away"...?

Yes. The key word here is *MINOR*.

Option 1 is that there's minor pitting on the cylinder walls it can be scraped off by the rings with no ill effect. (This is more likely if you pull the plugs, pre-oil the engine and turn it over by hand until your arms and back ache.)

Option 2 is that the cylinders need to be be rehoned but not overbored and you reuse all the parts.

Option 3 is that the cylinders need to be overbored and you essentially require a top overhaul.

Option 4 is that the engines are severely corroded internally and you need complete overhauls.

Do you have detailed borescope pictures of each cylinder?

Edit: That's why I asked you which airplane it is...we're a very small community and somebody is probably familiar with it.

[tomcomet]

Got a rough quote from Brant Aero. They are a very well known shop based at the airport I fly out of in Brantford Ontario. I have seen them mentioned a few times on this forum as well.

Tomorrow we will get the results from cutting the filters and checking the oil from the last two oil changes. That will tell us more about the current state of the engines.

I was loosely quoted $38,000 USD plus $1000 shipping and then $7,500 $CAD per engine PLUS whatever else is needed (belts, hoses, whatever). WOW! This airplane thing really is a whole new ballgame and, oh yeah, I need TWO BLOODY ENGINES!!!

I was told if the engine analysis comes back clean I can 1) fly with these up to and and past TBO (obviously) or 2) replace an engine at a time as time and budgets allow.

It is frustrating because everything else we looked at on this plane was in great shape. It just didn't get flown enough and now it is barely worth anything because it needs two engines.

Any other options that I am not seeing here..?

Perhaps it is just time to walk away...

[tomcomet]

Originally Posted by kilr4d

Yes. The key word here is *MINOR*.

Option 1 is that there's minor pitting on the cylinder walls it can be scraped off by the rings with no ill effect. (This is more likely if you pull the plugs, pre-oil the engine and turn it over by hand until your arms and back ache.)

Option 2 is that the cylinders need to be be rehoned but not overbored and you reuse all the parts.

Option 3 is that the cylinders need to be overbored and you essentially require a top overhaul.

Option 4 is that the engines are severely corroded internally and you need complete overhauls.

Do you have detailed borescope pictures of each cylinder?

There were a number of boroscopes in play yesterday and none were that great as far as I am concerned. The one that gave the best "view" was the simpliest with an eye piece and a light. That was what I personally saw thepitting the best with. The other two were Rigid and Stanley type digital units with crappy little screens that could be magnified but did not give a lot of detail. None had the ability to take photos and I didn't thing to take a photo of the screen (bad).

These engines had a top end overhaul less than 50 hours ago but that was also something like 10 years ago.

Keep in mind - these are original engines with 1440 hours on them. It is kind of a unique situation.

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by tomcomet

It is frustrating because everything else we looked at on this plane was in great shape. It just didn't get flown enough and now it is barely worth anything because it needs two engines.

Lol.

Welcome the to world of 40 - 50 year old piston twins. Doesn't matter if it's a Seminole or a C421...not uncommon for runout engines to signal the end of the airplane.

[hharney]

Engines and/or cylinders are commodity items 😀 Nothing is cheap but they are replaceable. The airframe is not. If this thing is so clean as you say then go for it! Buy the damn thing like you know the engines need replaced. They are at TBO right? If you end up getting 600 hours out of them then bonus. There is no guarantee if you bought one with new engines. When you buy these old planes you need to plan for $20,000 a year for the first couple years before they stabilize and stop bleeding. Airplanes that sit with no use will need some real,serious maintenance for the first couple years. The Skymasters are not 172's with two engines. They are complex airplanes that need continuous TLC.

Good luck Tom

[JamesC]

I remember years ago I was getting quotes for insurance on a Reims 337. The insurance company Magnes under COPA would not insure me for a Reims 337, but no problem for a Cessna 337. I left it at that and bought a Cessna. You might want to look into insurance before you buy. Just a thought.

[tomcomet]

Originally Posted by JamesC

I remember years ago I was getting quotes for insurance on a Reims 337. The insurance company Magnes under COPA would not insure me for a Reims 337, but no problem for a Cessna 337. I left it at that and bought a Cessna. You might want to look into insurance before you buy. Just a thought.

I appreciate that bit of information. I too was very concerned about the insurance aspect so it was one of the very first things I got locked in. I have a very competitive quote from Global Aerospace and plan to move forward with them.

You must find a way or make one!
-hannibal

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by tomcomet

...I plan to move forward...

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