Rolls Royce TSIO-360

[Learjetter]

Originally Posted by Dr.Dan

Status update: no real progress yet.

Continental has been worse than helpful. They basically sabotaged me by denying any knowledge of RR tsio-360’s even though there’s multiple service bulletins from the era.

I’m waiting to receive the records from the FAA.

I may pursue a limited stc.

I may need to buy a whole new engine and I won’t even get core credit for this.

DD

Dr Dan,
If you find you need some friendly FAA airworthiness peeps to talk to, PM me, I might be able to help.

-LJ

[rrolland]

DD:

Attached is the Aircraft Condition Notice issued by the DEN FSDO back in 1989 for N78C. The logs show that in the end, the owner at the time elected to replace the engines with Continental TSIO 360's.

The records that I have also show that the owner at the time engaged in legal action against the provider/dealer for the engines. From what I can see, the record is inconclusive and I am not sure that any compensation was paid.

PM me if you are interested and I will be more than happy to mail you all of this. It may be of assistance, or it may not.

Richard

[Frank Benvin]

Quote "Attached is the Aircraft Condition Notice issued by the DEN FSDO back in 1989 for N78C"

Approval was by CCA only - Canada Civil Aviation

[rrolland]

Frank:

The certification authority for the RR engines was the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) from the UK.

Richard

[mshac]

Register it in Canada - Problem solved.

[Dr.Dan]

Originally Posted by mshac

Register it in Canada - Problem solved.

Actually that’s the problem. It has been fine for the decades it has been in the states. Importing it to Canada last year started this fiasco. We are still working with Transport Canada and the FAA. No solution yet.

DD

[wslade2]

can you just leave it registered in the US? Plenty of aircraft are registered owned by "holding companies" not necessarily geographically located where you, the individual, is at.

[mshac]

Originally Posted by Dr.Dan

Actually that’s the problem. It has been fine for the decades it has been in the states. Importing it to Canada last year started this fiasco. We are still working with Transport Canada and the FAA. No solution yet.

DD

I'm truly sorry for your situation, and I hope you're able to get it worked out.

The FAA CLEARLY stated in the VAR crank AD comment response section that US-certified AC were currently flying with the UK-certified RR engine, AND THEREFORE the AD must apply to them as well.

So if I understand this, the FAA will allow RR engines (at least theoretically based on their own commentary), but CAA will not???

So maybe maintain the N# registration? There are literally thousands of aircraft around the world that will never see US airspace yet proudly sport N# registration.

Seems crazy that the CAA won't accept RR certification from the UK, which is their controlling country. What they are are saying is because your plane was not built in France, it may not have a RR engine, even though both the airframe and engines were certified as identical. An interesting thing to research: Do they allow Continental engines on Reims aircraft??? My guess is they might.

This whole sorry saga is the definition of bureaucratic madness and ineffiency. The RR engines should be looked at as equivalent to the Continentals, and that should be that.

[rrolland]

DD:

Looking through the paperwork that I have from 78C, it appears that there is a way to actually certify the RR TSIO 360's for use on US registered aircraft.

On 9-18-1989, Continental issued a Service Bulletin (M89-20) titled Conversion of Rolls Royce Engines. The SB describes how the RR nameplates can be replaced by Continental nameplates.

While the Bulletin was rescinded on 12-15-1989 due to FAA objections outlined in a letter signed by the Manager of the Engine Directorate New England Region, the issue was brought to the attention of FAA national shortly thereafter. On July 6 1990, the FAA (AIR-1 Director of Aircraft Certification) issued an Action Notice (A8110.21) titled Acceptance Procedures for Rolls Royce/Continental Model TSIO 360 Series Engines.

The AN explains how the engines can be approved on an engine by engine basis: provide the initial UK CAA Approved Certification/Dispatch Instruction" which was issued with each new engine and then have the engine inspected by an IA or a Repair Station which can then sign the installation off.

Overall, there were 40 RR engines imported into the US.

So the AN provides a path of a RR engine to be approved in the US. That still leaves Canada.

The US and Transport Canada have reciprocal certification agreements in place and a particular engine approved by the US FAA should be allowed by Transport Canada on the basis of reciprocity.

Hopefully this is helpful. I am happy to provide copies of that documentation if interested.

Richard

[Ed Coffman]

The Type Certificates for most of the Reims-produced Cessna aircraft were transferred to Cessna in 2006. This allowed owners of Reims Cessnas to register their aircraft on the U.S. N-number registry with minimal difficulty. In the eyes of the FAA, Reims Cessnas are “considered domestic products for the purpose of design certification and continued airworthiness” per Type Certificate A23EU.

[Dr.Dan]

Originally Posted by rrolland

DD:

Looking through the paperwork that I have from 78C, it appears that there is a way to actually certify the RR TSIO 360's for use on US registered aircraft.

On 9-18-1989, Continental issued a Service Bulletin (M89-20) titled Conversion of Rolls Royce Engines. The SB describes how the RR nameplates can be replaced by Continental nameplates.

While the Bulletin was rescinded on 12-15-1989 due to FAA objections outlined in a letter signed by the Manager of the Engine Directorate New England Region, the issue was brought to the attention of FAA national shortly thereafter. On July 6 1990, the FAA (AIR-1 Director of Aircraft Certification) issued an Action Notice (A8110.21) titled Acceptance Procedures for Rolls Royce/Continental Model TSIO 360 Series Engines.

The AN explains how the engines can be approved on an engine by engine basis: provide the initial UK CAA Approved Certification/Dispatch Instruction" which was issued with each new engine and then have the engine inspected by an IA or a Repair Station which can then sign the installation off.

Overall, there were 40 RR engines imported into the US.

So the AN provides a path of a RR engine to be approved in the US. That still leaves Canada.

The US and Transport Canada have reciprocal certification agreements in place and a particular engine approved by the US FAA should be allowed by Transport Canada on the basis of reciprocity.

Hopefully this is helpful. I am happy to provide copies of that documentation if interested.

Richard

Thanks for the post. It is my understanding that if approved by FAA, then yes Transport Canada would also approve. It seems getting official FAA approval has been part of the challenge. Perhaps these documents would help. If you could please forward them to me that would be great. If you send me a private message I'd be happy to supply my email.
However, this avenue may have already been tried by people working on my behalf. There have been nuances in the logistics/paperwork that have killed every possible lead so far.

Thanks,
DD

[Ed Coffman]

Guys,

Be sure not to show them a copy of Type Certificate Data Sheet A23EU that I posted links to a couple of messages ago, or they might go, "Oh No problem here. Have a nice day." Then you would have to find another dead horse to beat.

[Dr.Dan]

Originally Posted by Ed Coffman

Guys,

Be sure not to show them a copy of Type Certificate Data Sheet A23EU that I posted links to a couple of messages ago, or they might go, "Oh No problem here. Have a nice day." Then you would have to find another dead horse to beat.

I guess I don’t understand exactly what that a23eu means. Trust me, I’m open to any solution. So far I’ve found that just because it’s logical, doesn’t mean it’s acceptable. I will happily research this avenue more.

DD

[Ed Coffman]

That explains a lot. Have a nice day.

[rrolland]

DD:

The TCDS lists the parameters and equipment for a type certification. I have attached the top part of the TCDS for the French built 337's.

This does not help. The TCDS for the FT337GP lists the Continental TSIO 360C. See the second attachment.

In fact, no French built 337 was equipped with the RR engines when they came out. They were equipped with Continental engines. All Reims did was assemble kits supplied by Cessna under the Cessna TCDS which has always listed the Continental engines.

Richard