looking for a full de-iced late P model

Brent · #1 07-26-05, 09:05 PM

Does anyone have any leads on a P model with full deice? I've been flying a P210 for the last 20 years but feel it's time for two fans, and the P337 seems the only practical solution. I need the pressurization as the 'minimum sector altitude' about 1 mile from my home airport is 16,000msl, and I run into enough ice that the boots are a must. A good solid maintenance history is also important to me, and good radios would be nice, but run-out engines are ok.

Is there any truth to the rumor that 'plumbed' for boots means nothing since the parts are no longer available to make a new deicing boot installation? That you can replace parts on existing systems only?

kevin · #2 07-27-05, 08:02 AM

In answer to your last question, plumbed for boots is not very useful, but not for the reason you described. You *can* find the parts, there is an outfit that has a display ad in trade-a-plane that can do the whole thing for you, but it is incredibly expensive when you include installation labor (I remember 30K plus, but that is a very vague memory). The real reason that plumbed for boots does not mean much is that you still have to open everything up to put in the needed valves, etc. So plumbed for boots is a very small advantage. Search for the words "boots" or "plumb" use the board search function and you will find more on this if I recall correctly.

In the end, you are way better off to pay for an airplane that already has boots than to grow one yourself, unless you have access to free labor and get a great deal on a non-deiced airplane.

Kevin

hharney · #3 07-27-05, 08:08 PM

LANDER, WY AND THE GREAT WIND MOUNTAINS. AWESOME CHUNKS OF ROCK AND SOME WIND MAKE THOSE PEAKS VERY INTERESTING TO CROSS. I'VE DONE IT TWICE IN MY CURRENT 337 AND A FEW TIMES IN A 320. YOUR RIGHT ABOUT THE SKYMASTER BEING A LOGICAL CHOICE. ALTHOUGH I DO NOT HAVE TURBOS OR SMALL WINDOWS, I DO QUESTION THE ADVATAGES TO HAVING ALL THE CANDY.

HAVE VIEWED ALL THE REGULAR SITES FOR LISTINGS. THERE ARE QUITE A FEW P MODELS AROUND FOR SALE BUT ONLY A FEW WITH BOOTS. ALTHOUGH THE FEW THAT ARE OUT THERE, WHICH A COUPLE ARE RILEY'S, LOOK TO BE WORTH CHECKING OUT. HOW ABOUT A SUPER? THE ONE IN OHIO FOR SALE HAS IT ALL PLUS A PRICE. WOW! THEY LOWERED THE PRICE $50K LAST WEEK. BETTER HURRY.

Brent · #4 07-28-05, 02:59 PM

Thanks for the replies. On the deicing I can see the only practical way is to find an 'existing'. I wish TKS was available, as I had that on the P210 and found it to work extreamly well. It helped take the 'pucker factor' out of traveling through most imc situations I've encountered.
Just to make sure, what are all the 'usual' locations to check? I've been following TAP, Controller, and ASO. Are there any others I ought to be looking at?

Pat Schmitz · #5 08-05-05, 01:32 AM

Brent -

Give me a call, or email me - I know of one that might be for sale.

pschmitz@starband.net

Pat

WebMaster · #6 08-05-05, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Brent

Just to make sure, what are all the 'usual' locations to check? I've been following TAP, Controller, and ASO. Are there any others I ought to be looking at?

Might also try www.skymaster.com

Mark McConaughy · #7 08-15-05, 04:40 PM

Having De-ice boots for the unexpected is great and if I were looking for an airplane it would certanly be a plus. However, I,m not sure if the P210 is certifified for known ice but to the best of my knowledge the P337 (or any other 337 for that matter) is not certified for flight into known icing conditions. I've attached a copy of the reg.

------------------------------------

Section 91.527: Operating in icing conditions.
(a) No pilot may take off an airplane that has—

(1) Frost, snow, or ice adhering to any propeller, windshield, or powerplant installation or to an airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system;

(2) Snow or ice adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces; or

(3) Any frost adhering to the wings or stabilizing or control surfaces, unless that frost has been polished to make it smooth.

(b) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly—

(1) Under IFR into known or forecast moderate icing conditions; or

(2) Under VFR into known light or moderate icing conditions unless the aircraft has functioning de-icing or anti-icing equipment protecting each propeller, windshield, wing, stabilizing or control surface, and each airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb, or flight attitude instrument system.

(c) Except for an airplane that has ice protection provisions that meet the requirements in section 34 of Special Federal Aviation Regulation No. 23, or those for transport category airplane type certification, no pilot may fly an airplane into known or forecast severe icing conditions.

(d) If current weather reports and briefing information relied upon by the pilot in command indicate that the forecast icing conditions that would otherwise prohibit the flight will not be encountered during the flight because of changed weather conditions since the forecast, the restrictions in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this section based on forecast conditions do not apply.

Here is the excerpt from SFAR 23 (not to be confused with Part 23).

34. Ice Protection.
If certification with ice protection provisions is desired, compliance with the following requirements must be shown:

(a) The recommended procedures for the use of the ice protection equipment must be set forth in the Airplane Flight Manual.

(b) An analysis must be performed to establish, on the basis of the airplane's operational needs, the adequacy of the ice protection system for the various components of the airplane. In addition, tests of the ice protection system must be conducted to demonstrate that the airplane is capable of operating safely in continuous maximum and intermittent maximum icing conditions as described in FAR 25, Appendix C.

(c) Compliance with all or portions of this section tray be accomplished by reference, where applicable because of similarity of the designs, to analysis and tests performed by the applicant for a type certificated model.

WebMaster · #8 08-15-05, 10:41 PM

Skymasters are not certified for flight into known iceing conditions. None of them are. Continued flight into known iceing can get you in trouble.

HOWEVER, if you inadvertently find your self in icing, having boots is a great thing. I have found my self in such a situation, and it was good to be able to blow the ice off.

At the same time, I have been in icing, and properly, requested lower, and got it, to avoid ice. I crossed lake michigan at 4K, going east, because we were picking up ice at 5K.

I have also landed with ice still on the airframe, but had been able to keep flying because the boots kept it off the wing.

Mark McConaughy · #9 08-28-05, 11:35 AM

Well I have to say, that I've been flying for lets just say "a while",

I have flown, Props, turbo props, and jets in icing conditions. and I have to agree with larry bowdish, boots etc. are great to have when you run into unforcast Icing conditions. And after thinking about it the worse ice i've encountered over the years has been unforcast. What with Flight Service operating in don't sue me mode, they forcast ice if the temp is below freezing and there is any mosture. (which as far as i'm concerned tends to be like crying wolf to a large degree). So that makes it even more of a shock when you run into ice nobody told you about.

Cause you know how it is about pilot reports. if there arn't any one has to wonder if it's just not bad, or noone is brave enough to try it. or thier just not saying. Botton line, boots are nice to have even if the airplane isn't certified to operate in known icing conditions.