Skymaster valuations

[Roger]

Strato...

With all due respect, you really do not seem to have a clue. Your first example has NO LOGS. If you have ever owned an airplane, you would know what that means, and if not, then it's not even worth talking about.

Your second example is listed as a 1965G. Well that's real nice, except there is no such thing as a 1965G. So I would suggest that once again you are attemptng to compare something that doesn't exist.

I can't even find the third example, but I would imagine it's not much different than the first two.

I think it's great that you are looking, but you seem to be living in the twighlight zone as to cost, operations and maintenance, which is exactally what this web-board is all about.

I personally am done responding to this dream sequence in a bad movie. The next thing you know, Bobby will wake up in the shower.

[Cole5Oh5]

Yo, STATOBEE, Hang on there, Dude.
If you were looking for a reasonably priced Skymaster, why aren't you bidding on one of those??

Spend your money, or NOT, and stop the whining. A Skymaster is not in expensive, but then neither is a good woman. So, you can pick up a cheap one, spend major money to get her to where you want, or spend a little more and get one that someone else has already poured their hard earned money into.
Take a look at my tag line, you'll get what I mean.

[Ed Coffman]

Exactly! As a young 20 year old lady years ago told a 40 year old friend of mine. "Honey, you can drive a Ferrari or a station wagon. It is your choice" He picked the Ferrari until she turned into a station wagon.
________
Plymouth gtx

[Ernie Martin]

While I don't disagree with the above, let me offer some hope based on my experience.

There are occasional opportunities, where a person HAS to sell and you can pick up an aircraft at, say, $20,000 under market value. Eight years ago, after selling my first Skymaster, I bought my 337G with half-time engines, updated avionics and maintained by the Ohio State university FBO for $71,000, when market was close to $100,000. But I was without an airplane for about 6 months, looking for such an opportunity (the seller had been using it for business and had already bought a larger aircraft to accomodate growth, so the Skymaster was just a liability on his balance sheet) and I negotiated hard.

If you have mechanical skills (or a friend who does) and lots of time, and can use some of the tips in this forum to buy parts, you may be able to find an aircraft with some deficiencies that can be brought to a satisfactory standard at a total price within your budget. The trick here is a) to make sure you know exactly what's wrong (that you are later pleasantly surprised when there is LESS wrong than you thought, and not the opposite) and b) to leverage the deficiencies to reduce the price BEYOND what the deficiencies suggest (take market value, deduct for repair of the deficiencies at full FBO labor/parts rates, and deduct another $20,000 for uncertainties and for the fact that in its current condition the aircraft attracts 90% less buyers).

But both of these examples still require that you find an expert to determine condition and, in the second case, the remedies and the resources to accomplish them. End result should be a fully airworthy aircraft, not an accident waiting to happen.

Ernie

[stratobee]

Ernie, I think everyone is missing the point. I'm not talking about odd opportunities. Those exist in all markets and like you said, are rather random. Right time, right place kind of things.

I was merely reflecting on the fact that overall prices have decreased. This has obviously upset many people here and I'm made out to be the bad guy, so I might as well just embrace that since the damage is already done. I understand that my views are in-popular on a board where most people have paid for something they thought would if not increase in value, at least not decrease. Believe me that this is not something I obviously wish upon you, I'm just observing this a a spectator and a potential buyer.

My point was alway this:

A real depreciation in overall valuations across the board for aircraft, whether you have new engines or clapped out ones, whether it's in mint condition or has flown 100.000hrs, whether it's a Cessna 337 or a Luscombe.

The same depreciation has not happened on the maintenance side (in fact the opposite), so there's a bigger gap between what you can get for your aircraft when you sell it, and what has gone into it in parts and maintenance. All that effort and those parts will not get rewarded come selling time.

So, sure, a clapped out 337 that you want to make mint will cost you tons, this I completely agree with. But the point I was making was that the same clapped out or dolled up 337 5-10 years ago would cost twice as much as it does today. Nothing in the aircraft has changed, just the economic times.

[Paul Sharp]

Strotobee, looking at your overall responses on this thread, I'm afraid I have to agree with the others. You aren't living in the real world.

[Roger]

OK, this is my last response. really, really the last one

There are very few mechanical devices that you can buy that do not depreciate. Boats, planes, cars, lawn mowers, chain saws, etc.. all depreciate. Some things even become obsolete like CRT computer screens, sony Walkmen, 3-wheelers, etc.. which regardless of their condition or age, make them go even boyond depreciation to essentially no value.

So the question seems to be: where does an aircraft fall into the zone of depreciation? To this there is no easy answer because an airplane is virtually the only mechanical device on the planet that has a set parameter of maintenace and repair that MUST be maintained to allow it to be used. Likewise many if not all of the components therein are repairable, exchangeable and or ungradeable.

So the answer to "did the set value of a particular aircraft substantially decline in the past 5 years" has about 5 components, and under some circumstances the aircraft could actually be worth more, depending on the condition therein.

So yes, out there somewhere are aircraft that have gone down in value in x years. But for example if I was even inclined to sell mine, I would not sell it for less than I paid for it about 4 years ago. This because my plane is worth more than I paid for it 4 years ago by they way I have maintaned it, and the upgrades I have done to it.

So Strato you may find what you are looking for out there, but you won't. Because a) it really doesn't exist in a condition that is flyable for a value you think is fair and b) you will never do it anyway because on one hand you are talking about saving pennies, but weren't you the guy that was talking about having it set up to ferry back and forth to Europe? This whole thing is like the Twighlight Zone.

Buy a 150. They are pretty cool, and it would allow you to get the feel for owning an aircraft. Then once you've had it for a couple of years, sell it for less and buy something else

[stratobee]

I appreciate you coming out of retirement for me Roger

But what everyone is trying to convince me of (but mostly themselves) is this:

1. You buy an aircraft that's perfect, but has run out engines for 50K.
2. You replace engines for 70K.
3. You turn around and can now sell for 120K.

This won't happen in todays market.

I think what has skewed everything is that for a very short while, aircraft prices actually appreciated due to a)demand, b) the good times and c) the lack of new alternatives. All those three parameters are no longer there and this has had a profound effect on used aircraft pricing. I know, because I've been a closet buyer for 10 years, it's only now I have the funds.

Add the uncertainty of the SID's, 100LL and no Mogas alternative on top and plain and simple, you're not going to get back what you put into it, at least not a Skymaster (who already was a fish-out-of-water in the used market). This was already stated by Edasmus very early on in this thread, but for some reason nobody jumped him, only me.

I did miss a 336 very recently and I hope it gets re-listed (it didn't sell) again as it seemed like a manageable project for me, I was just not quick enough on it.

[ipasgas1]

I tend to agree with Strato. I got out of my Skymaster a couple years ago and went to a single. I have regretted it and have not been comfortable flying since. As such, I am planning on another twin. I would love another Skymaster but I would not buy one at the price some folks are asking because you would never get back out of it. It is a great plane but the demand is declining, age is increasing, and the wing SID isn't going to help a bit. I'm not sure why everyone jumped on Strato for his opinion as it is one way to look at things. Skymasters are selling for alot less than they were a couple years ago. I have never seen P's and Riley's as low as they are now. Paul, wasn't your T337 listed at 120K a year ago and is now at 69K? How can you say you can't get a decent 337 at that price? I think your plane is nice but you have had to lower your price like everyone else due to demand and the economy. I'm still selling my Lancair Legacy but once she is gone... it seems like an ideal time for 337 buyers.

[tropical]

The entire airplane market is down, not just Skymasters. I've noticed you've had your Lanceair Legacy for sale for a while now also.

[Roger]

PS

I agree that aircraft values in general are down. In some catagories of aircraft more than others. I also believe that but for the outstanding SID question which has yet to be resolved one way or the other, a good twin utility aricraft like the 337 should maintain it's value well above (as a %) many other aircraft. THis primarily because 337's have always been a bit of an "underdog" in pricing to begin with.

[Learjetter]

Interesting points of view, all. I'll try to summarize: would be buyers want to take advantage of the "depression" in aircraft values (like me) and owners/sellers can't believe buyers don't see the value they see in their aircraft. I think an aircraft can be professionally valued (Vref, loan company, etc) at $x, but if a buyer is willing only to pay $y, then the aircraft is only worth $y to both parties, regardless of what the "system" says the aircraft is worth. Anyone selling anything on eBay learns this lesson quickly.

Fly safe!

That said: I also think if a buyer gets too good a bargain, somethings fishy....caveat emptor.

[edasmus]

If anyone is interested who followed this thread in the past, my 2010 grand total came in at $23,997.47. The hours came in at 104. Again this includes maintenance, insurance, hanger, and 100LL. This also includes every sectional chart, headset batteries, etc. Nothing is left out.

If 2011 goes as planned (big if), I will not have an annual in 2011. My current inspection was signed off 12/1/10 so it will not expire until 12/31/11. This means the annual will occur during the month of January 2012 and get signed off February 1, 2012.

Happy New Year!

Ed

[Skymaster337B]

Wow, that is $230.75 per hour. Most multi rentals cost about $250+ per hour.

[sunnysky]

I've owned my Skymaster for over 28 years and still marvel at it's virtues.
Maintainance is getting more difficult (since the demise of my good friend Pete Somers, who was a great contributor to this site ) .
My wife will only fly in "sturdy" aircraft such as the Skymaster or say a 182.
We have friends here in France with the new generation stuff like Diamond Stars and Rotax powered homebuilts, but the owners wifes do not like flying in them. When we arrange a trip away with several aircraft, the other wifes always want the spare seats in our 337.
I think this says it all !! Also, trhe other "economical " aircraft I mention are also almost unsellable. The friend with the Rotax powered aircraft has been trying to sell for over two years, so ALL light aircraft are difficult to sell.
So, as long as I continue flying , its only a 337 I would consider.
Sunny Sky.
P.S.
We are planning a trip from France to Thailand in Nov/Dec this year. Going through Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Luxor, Riyadh, Bahrain, Oman, Karachi, Alhamabad, Bhopal, Patna Chittagong and to Chiang Mai. Can easily get the clearances and avgas is available. Don't suppose any of you U.S. guys are in to join us on such a trip ?
Long shot I know , as you would have the hardest part to get to Europe !!