Insurance costs

[Nick Bailey]

The 337 everyone is thinking about is on Bill Crews Skymaster center website. A 75 with high time engines. Before I bought my bird I toyed with the idea of buying at a good price, if I could replace the engines with the Innodyne turbines..A twin turbine skymaster with fixed gear..

[Physico]

Having owned a couple of 337s and a couple of 336s in my life, I feel qualified to comment on some of the factoids that are being passed around. First and foremost, please don't call a skymaster an easy plane to fly. Yes, it flys as stable as a kitchen table but when transitioning from a 172, or some such forgiving plane, a 336 or 337 can be a handful when the going gets tough. I had an examiner pull the rear engine shortly after take off with the gear in the process of retraction and the result was amazing. We were heading for the trees and barely made it after the gear doors closed. Don't be too quick to retract the gear after take off. I will not pull the gear handle until at least 500 feet off the ground above flat terrain, and 1000 feet in the hills. It gives me the shivers when I see instant gear retraction after take off.
I now own a 336 (my second one) and love it. It is slower than a 337 but cannot be beat on take off and landings. There is no problem with rear engine over heating and I usually keep the rear cowl closed! The trick is to always run both engines when moving on the ground. That keeps the air moving over the fuselage and into the rear engine. Don't taxi on the rear engine alone! It really helps to keep the climb angle at a reasonable degree and maintain about 100 mph. Don't climb like a banshee at 70 mph with the engines screaming and zero visibility over the nose. The 336 will outclimb many 337s, however the visibility over the nose is not as good. If you really need two engines, or just want them for whatever reason, there is no finer airplane than a 336.

[Francisco]

Well sayd- physico- I love my 336 and see 150 miles at cruice, and climb about 110. Never had rear engine temp problems.

Lots of expences last 3 years $10,000 ++ but getting better and better.

will be going to the paint shop next month.

[kevin]

I got the "rear engine hot" information directly from two 336 owners, one of whom's aircraft I am running pictures on the home page of the site. The other I talked to at the Arlington Fly-in a couple of years ago. I am glad that neither of you are having hot rear engine issues, and the score for 336's in my mental tabulation is now two with rear engine cooling issues, and two without. My definition, by the way, of having rear engine cooling issues is having to run with the rear cowl flap open partially or fully during cruise.

I am very interested in this subject, because the 337 suffers from "rear engine hot" rumors that I have found to be nearly completely untrue, both from personal experience, and from talking to a lot of owners. So I have always wondered where the rumor came from, and from talking to 336 owners, it seems it must have come from the 336. Cessna dramatically changed the cooling system from the 336 to the 337, and that would seem to support that there must have beens some owners who have this issue.

It is very good to hear that it is not something that happens for every 336 owner. And anyway, opening the cowl flap during cruise partially is no big deal. Just interesting to me.

Kevin

[kmack3211]

I just received a quote for a '67 Skymaster with the usual coverages and it wasn't too bad. I currently pay a little over $1100. per year for a '55 Bonanza and to upgrade to the Skymaster the premium is a little over $1900. per year. I have about 350 hours in type but I don't have an IFR ticket. I priced out insurance on a P-model and the rate was over $4500. plus mandatory recurrent training annually. This mandatory training includes my son, a co-owner, who is a 737 driver for Southwest and a 9 year veteran Navy pilot. It seems to me the insurance companies just don't want to write a policy on the high flyers.

[SkyKing]

You guys ever seen them buildings that these insurance companies build/own/rent... and the lifestyle/cars/perks they operate with? That's YOUR money they're spending... for their own pleasure! Kinda like having an expensive date for a whole year!

Let's see... since the PIC is has final authority on airworthiness and continued operation of the airplane, why not take full responsibility for YOUR own actions... let the buck stop with you... NIXING the insurance man with his fine print and exclusionary clauses. Part 91 contains more than enough recurrency requirements and that combined with familiararity with one's own equipment and safety issues pertaining specially to the 337 is plenty proof of ability. Not for everyone, true, but learning to live without the insurance man can save you a bundle.

Soooo, let's take that $1900, or $4500, and convert it to 337 noise, which is music to my ears: At conservative power settings, that $1900 will net you 20 gallons an hour and at the current petro rip-off rate of $3 a gallon that $1900 will get you 32 hours of flying time. But wait! $4500 will buy you 75-hours... what most people fly in a whole year!

The point is, (1) responsibility for one's own actions; and, (2)

And speaking of fuel costs, I used to have an FBO in the 1970's, selling 100LL for SIXTY-FIVE cents a gallon! Folks, the well-head price of that product has not changed, nor the refining process. The oil companies have become completely greedy and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of the profits are going to prop-up some third-world debt relief program, i.e., we may be paying for someone else's pleasure... again. On that note, has it occurred to anyone that maybe there ought to be an investigation into the monopoly-controlled and price-fixing AvGas companies? I believe there is enough evidence floating around to make a class-action lawsuit stick for the recovery of overcharges... so keep your gas receipts boys and girls!

Unbenownst to most, there is just ONE business operation... located in Salem, Oregon that took over and controls literall ALL of the former Texaco AvGas outlets... when they changed over to AirBP. Do some homework!

SkyKing

[OSCARDEUCE]

I just renewed mine for $3800.
Sky,
Part of the problem is no new refineries in 30 years. They are old and ineffienct and one breaks down every week. At least that is the excuse they use. The insurance guys and oils guys all have nicer cars, bigger houses and we all pay for it.

[big al 08]

you bee's the man skyking. dont' forget me & hillaery in 08.
if they are willing to insure, why not yourself duh. ror=10-20%

[Rickskymaster]

Could someone please tell me why fuel prices are higher in Europe than here in the US?

As for self insuring your plane, if your have the means, it will save you dollars. Please remember, the large hit is not from the hull loss, but from the Liability suit that will come from the loss.
Be prepared, if you survive, to be on the legal end of suit. This suit and the costs will make the insurance premiums look small.

Since I am in the Insurance business, and have been for 34 years, I think I can say that the carriers do make a profit, but their buildings are much smaller than most that I see in Las Vegas.

Skymasterick

[kevin]

Gas in Europe is more expensive due to higher taxes. Remove all the tax from the equation, and we pay the same as them.

Kevin

[SkyKing]

SkymasterRick,

You're PRESUMING that someone's property is going to be damagedin some manner or other. And what I'm saying is that if everyone would become responsible for their own actions, these 'accidents' we keep reading about would not be occurring. Part of the problem is putting the onus on yourself instead of relying on someone else to be on the hook. And too, flight instruction these days is in a deplorable state of mental confusion... just look at the kind of so-called 'accidents' that are happening!

When self-responsibility occurs, or call it self-policing oneself perhaps, it will end a lot of the BS in general aviation, improve the safety record, make better pilots of those currently flying, and 'IF' by the slim-margin chance there was an off-airport incident, that could be dealt with. Of course, I happen to also be in the legal arena and know a little bit about lawsuits, so that aspect doesn't bother me in the least... whereas someone who has to rely on an 'attorney' might be in a whole nother situation.

Let's face it, insurance is not going to prevent an 'accident' nor is it going to save your bacon or your plane, no matter which way you slice it or cook it.

SkyKing

[Rickskymaster]

We just got back yesterday from flying Coast to Coast-KGAI to KONT.

We paid from $2.89 in Dumas, Texas to $4.03 in Campaign, ILL and $2.73 at KBMG for 100LL

If the base price is all the same, how do these FBO's charge such different prices. Who is making the profit here, the Oil company or the FBO? If the Base price is different, why such a difference. The Well Head price is the same, isn't it?

As for Insurance, understand that you have the right to self insure and go on your way. If for some reason, you have an accident-an unplanned and unavoidable event- and happen to end up in my neighbors house, be prepared to have your heirs or yourself defending yourself in Court.

If you are not concerned about defending yourself, there is a saying for those who choose that route, you have a fool for a client.

Even the state requires that you maintain a certain level of Car Insurance, does it mean if we did not, that we would be better drivers?

I sell health insurance to rather large companies, thru the years I have had employee's at Open enrollment come up and complain about the costs, I have always said that if I could pay the premiums and that would guarantee me that I would never have to use it, what a lucky man I would be.


Rick


Rick

[SkyKing]

BTW Skymaster Rick,

You should peruse your 'state' copy of the statutes that impose 'car insurance'. Much to your chagrin will be the fact that there is NO such requirement to have 'car' insurance! Better look first at the definitions of what a 'Motor Vehicle' is and isn't, as well as the definitions of 'person', 'driver', 'passenger', and 'license'. I don't carry 'passengers', only guests. Of course, if you're operating a business on the public highway, as a 'driver', in a 'motor vehicle', by all means, better have that 'required' insurance.

SkyKing

PS... It's all in the law! And in the statutes you will not find the terms 'automobile' or 'car'. Neither will you find 'boat'... just 'vessels'. And there is also not to found the term 'airplane', only 'aircraft'. Gee, is someone trying to tell us something? ALWAYS, ALWAYS read the DEFINITIONS that define the terms being uses... because LAW is NOT ENGLISH!

[big al 08]

refering to hull, not liab. ins.i don't think others should pay for my dumb ass mistakes.

Read yours, most that I have read require certain types and limits of insurance.

FWIW

Keven
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