Northstar Loran repair/replacement/KLN90B

[Bob Cook]

GMAS / Kevin

My first instrument ride was orientation on a "range" in a 150 hp apache.
ADF, twin rmi's was the cadillac in Canada. NDB approaches were pretty stnd. I still have my ADF KR-87 and it works. I have done approaches with the 90B and works rock solid. We had to have it certified before use. ADF is still good to listen to talk radio. In fact most airlines will not allow ADF approaches anymore. Apparently AA flight into montreal was given a hold on an NDB and they couldn't comply. Their 727's do not have any form of RNAV, not even a kns80 <G>.

Re navigation in Bahamas

We follow the "floatsam", the grass and other debris in the water. More of it the closer it is to land. We can navigate by smell or just follow the boats. Need to look for florida registrations......

BTW the "markers" are being constantly removed. BTW GMAS have you seen the "white light" flash on your marker beacon panel lately?

BTW the Treasure airport was totally full on July 4th. Over 60 aircraft including a G4 and a couple of citations, and one kingair.
Absolutely no tie downs open. That was a first.

Bob

[kevin]

A knowledgeable friend suggested I consider the KLN-89B rather than the 90, because the operating logic is somewhat improved. Both are approach approved. The 89 is cheaper, on Ebay right now for $1K. Anyone have any comments on the KLN-89B?

Kevin

[SkyKing]

Kevin,

One of my relatives flies a Cessna 414 and they had a KLN89B that proved to be an unreliable headache... he switched over to the KLN90B and has been happy ever since. Having played with both, the KLN90B is a much more substantial piece of avionics and I personally like the green display rather than orange. Now, what came first, the KLN89B or the KLN90B? Me thinks the latter, so I'm not exactly sure how the 'operating logic' could have been improved, but each to his own medicine. Yes... the KLN89B is cheaper... because it IS cheaper and not as substantial as the KLN90A or 90B.

SkyKing

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO !!!!!

KLN90B ONLY

The 89 came first then the 90 then the 90B. The 90 is a rack replacement for the 89. The 89 was not reliable, did not have RAIM and did not have enough memory for the database. It is really tight now due to all the intersections and five letter waypoints.

I played with the 89 and did not like it. I mentioned I have the simulator if you want me to pass it along. Just email me.

The 90B is rock solid and I have had zero problems with it. I trust it 100 %. The green display is very bright during daylight and dims nicely. It is actually a CRT.

I saw one go on ebay for 1100 with yellow tag and a new GPS antenna. They are worth 400 dollars alone!
Make sure you get the data cartridge with it. Any yes, updates are reasoneable when you download thru the internet.

NOTHING LESS THAN THE 90 B or go the 94.

Bob

[kevin]

Thanks for the advice about which one you prefer. I think, however, that you are both wrong about the order the models were introduced. The KLN90 was the first King panel mount GPS, and the 90B was the first with approach approval. This is why you see so many units available on the market - they went into turbine equipment and are coming out now for newer stuff. The 89 was a lower cost unit (gas plasma display rather than CRT) that came out after the 90. I have read both manuals, and the 89 clearly came after the 90 in software development. For example, on the 90, the approach must be added to the end of a flight plan, on the 89, you can just select an approach and fly it.

Maybe I remember wrong, but I followed the GPS equipment very closely when it first came out, and this is the way I remember it.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts on which is a better unit, and what I wrote above is not meant to contradict that.

Kevin

P.S. Just checked with my avionics shop to see how the new transponder is going, and he confirms the KLN90B was introduced before the KLN89B. He says he is not aware of any issues with database size on the 89B. Anybody out there actually having these problems themselves, can tell me more about what they are? -Kevin

[Bob Cook]

Kevin

You are probably correct. I know they took the 90 back and upgraded them for a price. I think there is a difference in the database, and yes, they were very popular in oil burners. They were also very expensive. I think the 94 is the same as the 90 but more intuitive with a moving map. Trouble is the trays are different and everything needs to be swapped out. I tried that route and gave up.

Guess it depends if you want certification or not.

Wait for Osh and get a new 530 on sale...........

bob

[Kevin McDole]

I too recall the introduction sequence the same as Kevin. It was 90, 90A, 90B, then the 89.

My hangar mate's Mooney Ovation came with a 90B - and two years later when he upgraded to the Bravo, the 89B came standard.

I vaguely recall there was a problem with the approaches on the 89B and for a some period of time they lost their IFR certification. I don't remember the details, nor the fix.

In my opinion, the KLN90B is a good unit, but the "moving map" it offers couldn't be more primative. As someone else suggested, coupled with an Argus it's a nice setup. Unlike Bob, I have had a few RAIM errors. I had one of the early units and it has been to the factory for upgrades a couple of time. I haven't see the RAIM errors in several years now.

Regarding flying GPS approaches, with any unit you choose, make sure you really understand the steps required. The GPS Tee approaches are so easy they may lull you into a sense that you understand the unit better than you do. Try a GPS/NDB overlay with the procedure turn, where the NDB is used for the IAF, FAF, and Missed. That will quickly show you whether you understand the "details."

And I'll needlessly mention, the Garmin 430/530 blows away the KLN90B in ease of use, features, and situational awareness. But of course it costs a small fortune.

[Bob Cook]

Kevinm

Couldn't agree with you more. The 90B is primitive but for enroute works great. With simulator practice and understanding you can do GPS approaches just fine. A 295 gives you backup and situational awareness for 1200 dollars. In fact the VNAV function of the 295 blows away the 530... figure that one out!

I don't do circling approaches and I haven't shot many gps approaches but when coupled to the 525 they blow away any VOR approach hands down for precision and safety. The standardization of the T approach makes it really simple.

Maybe I am from the old school when an ADF needle and wet compass was a luxury. I haven't used a VOR in a year. Having accurate databases and flying to intersections makes life a lot easier. Now where was that paper chart?

Bob

[Kevin McDole]

Originally posted by Bob Cook In fact the VNAV function of the 295 blows away the 530

Bob,

The only time I've used VNAV was on the 530 - and I got hooked pretty quickly. It is a great feature. Tell me more about how the 295 works.

[Bob Cook]

The HSI steering bars (like the ILS) has a vertical bar that will track with a preset rate of decent and a location/altitude that you define as a "DH". When initialized, the 295 will warn you a minute or so prior to your required initial decent point (determined by calculated ground speed). You then fly the decent by tracking the "glide slope" horizontal bar. It will continue to provide your required altitude along the decent path and warn you coming up to the wp/altitude.

This feature was not inplemented in the 530 due to possible misuse, whereas he 295 is a VFR device and there is no way it could be construed as a IFR certified product. Hmmmm. Guess we call this "lawyer limited" <G>.

It works very well. The 90B has one as well but it is very primitive to the point of being useless.

In fact I can take the output of the 295 and download it on Flightstar and see my entire flight. Will output time vrs L/Long, or inversely upload my entire flightplan from Flightstar which beats handloading the 90B. ( all of two - six waypoints <G>). Try that with the 530 ---- no way! I can update the database via the internet for 30 dollars. I do this about once every 90 days.

Extremely powerful for the $$. In fact the only difference I really see is the approach overlays are missing ie. holding patterns and some of the more complex gps approaches. I see most of the gps approaches in the database including all the airways / intersections and routes for the bahamas and the caribbean and Canada. It doesn't have the missed proceedures in DB either. It has all the interstate rest stops etc. whereas the 530 doesn't <G>

fyi


Bob

[Kevin McDole]

Wow! The 295 sounds way cool. Thanks.

[Mitch Taylor]

Bob:

I use the VNAV function on my 295 as well, but I'm still a little off setting it up. What do you use for the altitude and distance from waypoint when you're setting the VNAF?

Mitch Taylor

[Bob Cook]

Mitch

you need a destination WP loaded. You can either select pattern height or alt and distance from destination in setup. You then set up in profile rate of decent and it will compute the starting point for let-down. Remember this is not barometric altitude as there is no barometric correction. You need to look at the barometric alt and possibly compensate for difference.

BTW GARMIN JUST ANNOUNCED A NEW 196 GPS TO BE RELEASED NEXT WEEK AT OSH. IF YOU CANNOT FIND INFO I CAN SEND IT TO YOU .......

bob

[Mitch Taylor]

Bob:

Thanks for the info.

Mitch.

[SkyKing]

Say Bob,

What's the story on the '196' Garmin? I have a 195 that I want to get rid off and have been looking to replace it with the 295, but now another number...Hhmmm. Tell me more.

When you gonna be out West? Let's have an eye-ball QSO at 1S0 when you're in the area.

SkyKing