Pattern and Landing

[aldoradave]

Going back to Texas to pick up my P337 next week. I will have a ATP/Citation jockey with some 337 experience with me. But never having flown one myself, I am more than curious as to the pattern and landing speeds as well as flap settings at the various points. If some of you more experienced pilots could give me a run down on what you do that would be much appreciated.

Dave Dillehay

[gkey]

I think most of us land our 337's at higher speeds than what they can really do (human nature, maybe). Think about it: Vs=65 KTS and Vso=52 KTS (for my plane), and still I land at about 75 KTS. These planes were originally built to fly Vietnam, and one of the key characteristics were to fly low, slow and be able to do steep decends for landings on very short runways. I have at (one) occasion landed my plane at 68 and was able to turn off the runway at the very first taxiway within a few seconds.

Having said that, here is my 'standard' procedure:
Before entering airfield - get speed down to 120
At entry of airfield or just before - lower gear + flaps 1/3 (this acts as a super-efficient airbrake, and will kill another 10 - 15 KTS easily. Do both simultaneously and you will have no pitch of the nose
Downwind - 100
Base - 90 + flaps 2/3
Established on final - 80 + props full +flaps full
Over the fence - 78
Over the threshold/numbers - Pull throttles back and round out just enough to make sure the mains will touch first; don't 'flare'. She WILL tippie-toe her feet on the ground 400 feet later. Like a symphony in aviation...

Of all the planes I have flown, I can tell you this: the 337 makes the best, most predictable landings ever. Time after time after time.

[Ernie Martin]

I go by the book, with some adjustments to ease workload and triple check gear down. My protocol is in the figure below*. Flaps to 1/3 and gear down abeam the opposite end of the runway at 1000 ft. altitude; do nothing but watch for gear down light; throttle to 16 abeam the start of the runway; maintain 1000 ft. until speed bleeds to 100 mph and then lower nose and adjust trim to maintain this speed throughout downwind and base; on final, flaps to full (with modest crosswinds, otherwise 1/3 to 2/3), props full fwd, adjust trim to 90 mph and put hands on throttles until touch-down; inside the fence and clear of obstacles, adjust trim (and, if needed, throttle) to 80 mph; when 3 - 5 ft. above runway, throttle all the way back and try not to land, slowly pulling the yoke back to keep flying 3 ft. above the runway (this is my trick for perfect landings, which avoids float and settles the aircraft down at the lowest possible speed). Obviously, short fields may need a different approach.

Note: I wrote the above before reading Jakes response, and I wanted to alert readers to the differences in speeds, because mine are in mph, and his appear to be in kts.

Ernie
___________________
* Derived from my "Passenger is Suddenly the Pilot" document, which I keep in the glove compartment to assist passengers if I become incapacitated.

[aldoradave]

Thanks for the input. I'll give it a go.

Hey Ernie, I sent in an e mail requesting your check list and that other info, and even included the liability release. Can you get that to me?

Dave Dillehay

[Ernie Martin]

Sorry, Dave, just checked and I never got it (request from others fulfilled 6/28/08, 8/10/08, 2/15/09, 3/7/09 and 3/12/09). Please send it again -- instructions at www.SkymasterUS.com

Updated 1.5 hours later: I found it. Outlook had put it in the Junk Mail folder. Will send it out shortly.

Ernie

[skymstr02]

I use the same speeds as GKEY, but on short final I trim almost full nose up where it takes effort to push on the yoke to maintain the glide path, so when I pull the power, all I have to do is relax the push and the airplane actually flares itself.

[John Hoffman]

Flew with an instructor who was a great Skymaster guy - he had me fly the pattern and down final with out ever touching the yoke. It was all pedals nose up trim and throttle. Had full up trim down final to finally taking the wheel just before touch down. I allways have full up trim now and as you say it pretty much lands itself if you have speed under control.

[Roger]

Two things I might suggest

1) I don't necessarily agree with full up trim on short final, becuase it's possible that you will need to go around, and full up trim will not be pretty if your need full power.

2) I have always said out-loud and used "Down wind / down Gear" as my point to put the gear down. This vs waiting until base or abeam. It's just an easy thing to remember. Once the doors are closed again the speed decrease is minimal, which keeps you moving around the pattern at a good speed, but adds one more way to "not forget".

[Skymaster337B]

My simple method:

Downwind: 100 MPH, 1/3flaps, Gear down
Base: 90 MPH, 2/3 flaps
Final: 90-80 MPH, 2/3-3/3 flaps (depends upon how well the pattern worked out)
Fence: 80 MPH, full flaps
Touch down: Whatever it takes to grease it in!

[gkey]

Maybe it is because I got scared witless one day when my gear refused to come down, or maybe because after pumping 97 times my arm was useless for a week afterwards, but I have a very healthy respect for the hydraulics system.

So, I lower my gear even before I enter the pattern, for the following reasons:
1. I want to pay full and complete attention to the gear lowering business - no distractions.
2. I want to know BEFORE I enter the pattern if I have a problem.
3. If I do have a problem, I am OUTSIDE of the busy traffic, I can break away to a quiter spot and do my troubleshooting there.
4. I can alert ATC if my problem is un-solvable, and give them time to clear the area and get ready for my pod-landing.
5. I can get color back to my face in time, because 'pale' does not look well on evening-news TV.

[dwbomber]

My two cents on the topic.
I have the habit of slowing her down ,getting in 1/3 flaps, and dropping the gear within a couple of miles of the pattern. I, also almost always only put in 2/3 flaps, unless it is real calm. The guy who sold me my first skymaster (flight instructor) showed me how easy she was to land with the nose trimmed all the way up. I do not do this, because if you encounter wind shear on final, or have to do a go around for any other reason, you might have wished you had the nose trimmed down a little. Also, it is good to take it easy on your turbos, and push and pull real easy. JIM

[rick bell]

fly your pattern at 10k, experiment with speeds and stettings then you will know your a/c

[Dave Underwood]

I agree with Rick, go and play at height and also get a feel for the buffet as you approach the stall with both power on and off, gear up and down. Try some slow flight as well to give you the feel of the controls at slower speeds(slightly heavy). The gear doors opening do create significant drag so I would suggest getting the gear down earlier in the game, but you will feel that as you play.

Generally a very relaxed machine to fly and land.

In my P337, depended on class of airspace, ATC hurry up and traffic, I will tend put out 1/3 flaps below 150 kts to slow down to 120/130 kts so I can fit in with slower traffic. Pull the throttle back about 1" per minute for engine/turbo cooling. Just a note on speed, most aircraft are doing 100 kts or less in the circuit, so slowing down is important. I always turn on the lights as early as possible.

Gear comes down at below 120kts on late downwind or base, no later than FAF if IFR. I try and use 120 kts or below as it is less work on the gear doors. My first GUMPs check is here. Gas, Undercarrage, Mixture and Props, with the props being delayed until short final when below governor range.

I tend to start decent on final (or base) at 100 kts +/- as the aircraft feels more stable at the slightly higher speeds. Once comfortable on final at about 100 kts to start and stable, second GUMPs check.

I am then slowing gradually all the way down final, but generally always leave power at least 1800rpm/21" to 2000rpm/22" until over the fence. Runway visual and landing assured I go to 2/3 flaps. Props go high on short final for the go around as part of the final GUMPs and if short landing is desired, full flaps. I usually only use 2/3 flaps, but have longer runways. Over the fence I am at 80 kts or slightly less.

I tend to keep the aircraft in reasonable trim once in the circuit to reduce work load.

Over the threshold, power can be reduced either a bit or all the way depending on runway length. In my P337, I find that a fairly high nose up on the flair works best. The process is level out at the first stages of feeling the runway coming up around you and then pull power while raising the nose. Generally I want to hear the stall warning just prior to touch down at what is likely less than 65 kts, though I can't say I have looked lately. The plane settles nicely on the mains with no effort. Having a little bit of power all the way to touch down makes the landings very easy. In fact one of my very experienced 337 friends suggested to always carry some power through the flair.

Using the above numbers and only very moderate braking you can be down and stopped in less than 1500 feet. When you have some practice, you can reduce the speeds above by about 10 kts for even shorter landings. If high on final, pull more power off, go props fine and push the nose over.

On cross winds, I use wing down, crossed controls all the way through the flair.

On take off unless heavy I use no flaps, I call airspeed alive at 50 kts, and find a fairly positve pull on the yoke at 75 to 80 knots works with acceleration to at least 100 kts for climb out. I delay gear up until at least 300 feet due to gear door drag.

The POH is pretty good on these aspects of flight as a BTW. The P337 flies like a 182 or 210 so a flight in either of those will assist you with the feel if you get a chance.

Hope this assists.

Regards - Dave