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  #1  
Unread 01-10-18, 09:22 AM
6498w 6498w is offline
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Prospective Buyer Questions

Forgive me, as I know many of these topics have been covered generally through the forum (I have read through them extensively and greatly appreciate the info!). I wanted to post a few lingering questions I have and throw it out there to see if any of you owners would take the time to "school" a prospective Skymaster buyer.

I've owned a few planes (all singles), a cherokee 140, Piper Warrior, Piper Arrow and a Cirrus Sr20. I've got around 1500 hours with commercial, instrument and cfi, cfii (expired) ratings. My last plane - the Piper Arrow was destroyed in hurricane Irma, and for the last decade or so I have been daydreaming about moving up to the 337; it seems like now might be the time!

I've noticed a lot of people on forums respond to questions of affordability with things like "if you have to ask, you can't afford it", and "it completely depends on whether you buy a hangar queen or something that has been well maintained". I would be really grateful for your personal experience with your airplane, and would like to preemptively say that I can afford it, and I understand the risks associated with ownership and the variability in reliability from one aircraft to the next.

The majority of my flights are pretty short - less than 2 hours, so speed isn't a big concern. I also don't have any mountains to contend with, and will most likely choose a normally aspirated model to save a bit on maintenance (unless the perfect deal "forced" me into a turbo or p). I will operate it out of Sugarloaf Airport - about 3000 ft in length - asphalt, but rough condition. I will have to tie it down (no hangars there).

Here are my questions:

1. I live in the Florida Keys - a couple islands up from Key West. I'm a little concerned about maintenance/annuals, as there are only a couple IA's down here, and neither are intimately familiar with the 337. The anti-337 crowd bashes the horrible maintenance costs and downtime of the plane, and the owners seem to generally report just the opposite.

With the understanding that most of my maintenance would require a trip to the mainland (about a 30 minute flight to several airports and a lot more IA's), do you think a 337 is a reasonable choice - or would you be concerned and get something a bit more common, like a Seneca so the local IA's can work on it. I recognize there is wild variability based on each planes condition/history, so I'm really asking for your personal experience and knowledge. I understand I could end up with a lemon (and yes, I will be calling on an expert to do a very thorough pre-buy) and my reliability might be worse than average. Maybe even a more specific question - assuming I purchase a 337 in reasonably good condition with reasonable times, fly it conscientiously, and partake in preventative maintenance and don't defer items in annuals, how many "surprise" visits to the shop would you expect in an average year?

2. Are the 5th/6th seats reasonably comfortable for "petite" adult women, or are they really just for very small children? My wife and daughter are in the 5'5" range and weigh around 120lbs. and they would probably be relegated to the aft (chivalry is dead!), since the rest of us are in the 6 foot range. How is C.G. with passengers in those seats? Finally, can 6th seats be added to 4 seat models, or do I have to make sure to buy one that already has 6 seats?

3. This is the questions that always draws the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" comment, but I have to ask! I can afford it. I know there's no way of justifying cost of ownership, but would like to get an idea of just how unjustifiable owning a 337 is! I am thinking of budgeting 25-30k all-in per year for 70 hours of flying time based on my research. I understand and can shoulder the occasional and awful "surprise" overhaul etc. Just to give you an idea of my local costs - fuel $4/per gallon with EAA discount. Tie down -$150/mo. Insurance looks like it will be around $3500 for a hull value of 75k since I don't have any ME time. With that in mind, and from your experience, is my estimate of 25-30k high, low, or pretty close?

Your thoughts on the above would be most appreciated!
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  #2  
Unread 01-10-18, 03:41 PM
edasmus edasmus is offline
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The following is a cut and paste from a thread on this site 1/3/16. This covers operating costs. This data is my personal experience since 2002 of 1973 C337G ownership. I do not have my 2016 numbers handy but it was an average/typical year. I did not have an annual in 2017 and the airplane is currently in the shop waiting for a part and then this annual inspection can be completed. It also is likely average. By that $8000ish would be my guess at this point.

My airplane only has 5 seats and the 5th seat is a kid seat. I have sat back there. It's not awful but not very practical. My guess is the 5th and 6th seats in aircraft so equipped are kid seats as well but someone else would have to comment on that.

I would be happy to talk with you on the phone next week or later as I have a cold at the moment and cannot speak very well.

In my opinion, the C337 is a great airplane. Expensive, yes but that is relative. Perfect, no. All airplanes are expensive and imperfect. Finding a good one would be important. Your attitude as far as I can tell by your post is in the correct place for C337 ownership.



What follows is the cut and paste from 2016.......


I have looked back at my Excel spreadsheets and I can give you some idea of my numbers over the last several years. I cannot go all the way back to 2002 as that would require digging out an old computer but this should give you an idea anyway.

These numbers are total dollars spent on my 1973 C337G (non-turbo) per year. They include hanger, insurance, 100LL, and maintenance all combined in one number. The airplane has been paid for since 2002. I own the hanger and it's operating cost is about $2000/year. My insurance runs about $2300/year for $90,000 hull, $1,000,000 liability and $100,000/passenger (pretty standard policy). I burn 17 gal/hour (hobbs). If we pick about $5.50/gallon of 100LL and multiply by 17, we get $93.50/hour on average for gas. Anyway, subtract all this from the total dollars spent in any one year and you will be left with a pretty good approximation of the maintenance dollars spent in any particular year. Hope this helps....

2015: $18,688.59, 57.9 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $8,974.94
2014: $16,299.93, 32.9 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $8,923.78
2013: $18,817.52, 54.0 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $9,468.52
2012: $25,011.97, 76.3 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $13,577.92
2011: $13,407.81, 83.6 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $1,291.21
2010: $23,997.47, 86.4 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $11,619.07
2009: $32,270.33, 79.3 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $20,555.78
2008: $34,665.76, 96.4 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $21,352.36
2007: $24,132.48, 89.3 hours (hobbs), derived maintenance $11,482.93


The year 2011 is low because there was no annual inspection that calendar year. My annual inspection cycles are 13 months (always signed off on the 1st and then I go to the last day of that month a year later) and then the plane is always down for at least a month during the annual inspection.

The years 2002 thru 2006, I owned the plane with partners and we had a system set up to charge hourly with assessments to cover the inevitable short falls. (The hourly rate was always way too low.) The first two annual inspections were large. Going on memory here, $21,000 the first year (mentioned in a previous post) and I believe $14,000 to $15,000 the second year but not certain on that one.

I have always told folks the airplane is about a $300 to $350 per hour airplane depending on whether it was a good or bad year. These numbers average about $315/hobbs-hour if you do the math.

I am not a mechanic. I read and study maintenance like crazy (big Mike Busch fan) and always have my nose stuck in the airplane during maintenance events, however I pay Lumanair Aviation Services at the Aurora Airport in Sugar Grove, IL to do 99% of the maintenance. They are an FAA and Cessna certified repair station and this is Chicago, IL prices. In other words, "high." My IA has been there 45+ years and he remembers when Skymasters were new. I feel good when he works on my plane. They have had some retirements there in the last year or two with the young ones replacing the old guys. I'm a little nervous about this but so far the supervision seems adequate and in all the years I have been flying the plane, I have never had a serious in flight issue so I seem to be getting what I pay for.

Also, I do not save for engine or prop reserves. I just pay as I go. If you are mechanically inclined and can perform the maintenance yourself under supervision of your IA, you can save big bucks. Parts can be expensive but the labor is way more expensive.

In my opinion, storing an airplane outside is a mistake and possibly a safety issue. These airplanes will leak water into places you don't want, critters are numerous, ultraviolet light, hot, and cold cycles are simply brutal on airplanes. I would strongly encourage a hanger. I'm done preaching on that.

Looking ahead in the future for this plane, the engines are now about 40 hours beyond factory TBO. My intention is to continue as long as I feel I can safely do so, provided I don't lose faith in the engines. So far so good. I figure to keep this airplane going for the long term will require someone (maybe me, maybe not) to invest at least $100,000. I'm guessing factory reman engines installed with props and ADS-B plus "odds & ends" will cost all that. My paint and interior are good but far from perfect. The panel is all King digital stuff with a GPS that couples reasonably well to the old Century III auto-pilot. Everything works (including the ADF) and I certainly do my best to keep it that way. I'm an old school guy. The G1000 panels are pretty but I don't want or need to fly behind one.

These airplanes, as mentioned in a previous post, are truly wonderful machines. Cessna had a great idea and executed it quite well in my opinion. They are however, an enormous commitment in time and money. If one is willing to put forth the resources, they will be rewarded with an outstanding airplane!

If you have anymore questions, I'll do my best to answer and hopefully I haven't screwed up any math too bad.

Take Care,

Ed Asmus N1873M
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  #3  
Unread 01-10-18, 03:52 PM
6498w 6498w is offline
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Thanks Ed,

Your post is actually where I came up with my estimate of 25-30k average per year since your annual hourly use is similar to mine (a little high, based on your numbers, but I'm trying to be conservative)! I've poured through the forums and your post was the easiest logic for me to follow and the most comprehensive regarding ownership/operating costs.

I agree with your admonishment of leaving a plane parked outside, but unfortunately, my limited airport options here don't offer hangar space. Hopefully some good covers and tlc can make up for some of the weathering my eventual purchase will take.

Thank you again for this post. It's really helpful to us prospective buyers to see an unbiased accounting of a real-world, owners expenses.
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  #4  
Unread 01-10-18, 04:15 PM
edasmus edasmus is offline
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If the plane is parked outside, on my airplane the danger spots are:

1) FUEL CONTAMINATION..... The airplane left the factory with thermos bottle type caps. Mine are less than a year old now but that accident report has been written many many times. The caps have a high probability of letting water in. This would be a HHHHUUUUGGGGEEEE concern for me on an airplane living outside. I do believe there is a retrofit kit that completely changes that fuel cap configuration to solve this problem. I would look into this as I am not educated to it. My airplane never gets wet.


2) AVIONICS ACCESS PANELS located in front of the windshield. I learned this lesson the hard way at Oshkosh back in 2003. There is a service bulletin dealing with this. I have complied with this but would never trust it. This panels will leak eventually and avionics will get WET.


3) DOORS AND WINDOWS... not really a safety issue but not good for the air-frame. Corrosion will eventually begin. This could likely be resolved with big efforts in replacing all windows and associated seals but I doubt that any air-frame of any model aircraft can be made completely water tight. They are old and hand made and no two airplanes are the same. The stuff never fits perfectly. Just my opinion.


Also, on this date, my old engines are still good. They have about 1670 hours since factory reman or about 170 past the recommended TBO. As mentioned, I will keep running them until I lose faith or they show a sign of distress. Preferably that sign of distress would occur in the shop and not in the air. I guess that's where the "faith" part comes into play. Infant mortality seems to be the greatest risk of all to new or recently overhauled engines. I'm in no hurry to go there. My IA's 75 hour SMOH with brand new factory cylinders is having valve trouble. That sucks.....

Good Luck and I'll help if I can.

Ed
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  #5  
Unread 01-10-18, 04:59 PM
6498w 6498w is offline
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Great info - and thank you again. I've been stuck parking all my planes outside down here. It's a bummer, but unavoidable. Full cabin covers help reduce the heat (terrible for avionics - I learned that with the first plane I owned down here). Not sure what is available for the 337, that will be one of my first investments.

One of my other questions was regarding the seats. Do you have the 5th and 6th rear seats? I'm really curious if they could be occupied a couple people with a 5'5" frames and around 120 lbs each for 1-2 hour legs with a reasonable degree of comfort. It also appears these were eliminated on post 73 models? Is that correct?

Thanks again - and sorry to keep asking questions! I'm just really limited down here with not a single 337 on the ramp. I'm planning on starting to journey up to the mainland to start checking out models that are for sale in Florida. I know that's the best way to learn and maybe I'll stumble across the "right one" in the process.
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Unread 01-10-18, 05:24 PM
edasmus edasmus is offline
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My plane a 1973 C337G and only has 5 seats. I think all 1973 and later C337's only have 5 seats. The aft seat is small, however I would say suitable for 5 '5 120 pound folks.

In my airplane, the bigger problem is not so much the comfort once seated, it is actually getting seated back there. It requires this mildly cumbersome effort to release the middle bench seat and raise it vertically (it's hinged) so one can gain access to the aft area for bags or 5th seat. Once seated, comfort is OK, even for me at 180 pounds 5 '11. The middle bench seat is heavy (40 pounds) and not very convenient to move around. I actually do not carry the middle bench seat in my airplane anymore. After I recovered the seats, I decided to never install it. I usually only fly with myself or one other person so needing all 5 is not necessary for me. A third person can easily sit in the aft small seat and gain access to it if the middle bench seat is not installed. The entire middle of the cabin is open space for whatever you want to carry without the middle bench seat installed. It's quite nice but obviously no good if you want to carry more than 3 people in a G model.

Another "mild" safety concern would be an aft seat passenger exiting the aircraft in an emergency. It would require crawling over the middle bench seat to get out. The back rests on the middle bench seat can be quickly flattened forward creating more space but it would still require crawling over the entire seat to get to the door.

I believe 1972 models and earlier all had baggage doors back there that doubled as emergency exits. 1973 was the year of pressurization and Cessna eliminated the baggage doors so as to not have more places for cabin air to escape. I think since the baggage door went away, part of the certification requirements were no more than 5 seats but not positive on this. My airplane is not pressurized but it is my understanding from 1973 on, Cessna built all the frames the same whether it was going to be a P-model or not. Consequently, no baggage door for me. You can have one installed I believe on 1973 and later models but that will require a $1 or $2.
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  #7  
Unread 01-10-18, 05:25 PM
edasmus edasmus is offline
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Bruce's Custom Covers for Skymaster covers. I believe there are posts on this forum about these.
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  #8  
Unread 01-10-18, 06:20 PM
6498w 6498w is offline
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Great - I will look that up. I've had a couple Bruce Covers for other planes and have been very happy with them.

Thanks again,

Nate
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Unread 01-10-18, 06:36 PM
likes2fly likes2fly is offline
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I would like to know all these questions too. I'm an A&P so my cost will be much lower than yours. You sound way to high to me except maybe the first year or two getting the plane right. I will save on an annual by doing it myself and have a friend that is an I.A. sign off on it for couple hundred dollars. There is no hangers available in my area, you really have to wait for someone to die to get one. Tie down is $50 per month. I'm guessing $100 of fuel per hour and three to four thousand for insurance. My maintenance would be free except for parts with no mark up. My first year will be the most expensive too because I may have to replace parts to get my plane up to great condition. An FBO makes most of its money off of annuals, hangers and fuel so the cost can very from one to another. I'm ball parking my 50 hours per year at $200 per hour all cost except the first year and assuming I don't get a limen that needs an overhaul 30 hours after I get it. I would think your annual would run between $1500 and $6000 per year not counting the first year. Flying to a FBO for the same quality inspection( I.A. ) as any other for half the price is worth it.
Now I must say this is coming from someone that has never been inside a 337 and I'm just ball parking everything. If I was not an A&P I would stick with a single but that's me. I know that when I'm flying my family and grandkids to the Bahamas and I lose one engine I can look back at my family and say don't worry I didn't go cheap we are fine we will just land at the nearest airport. I know that bad gas or no gas won't help in a twin but its still very good insurance.
That's my opinion and look forward to hearing some real numbers from real skymaster owners.
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Unread 01-10-18, 06:55 PM
6498w 6498w is offline
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I'm in the same boat (plane!) as you, Liketofly. I do a ton of over-water and have stopped doing family trips because I just don't feel responsible putting my kids in a single. I am hoping I am a little high on 25-30k all-in as well, but I've had surprises on singles I've owned that are making me use a more conservative number than might be necessary.
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Unread 01-10-18, 08:41 PM
likes2fly likes2fly is offline
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Yeah I think you are very high except on those bad times when you need a new cylinder or any other big ticket items.
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Unread 01-11-18, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6498w View Post
Here are my questions:

1.The anti-337 crowd bashes the horrible maintenance costs and downtime of the plane, and the owners seem to generally report just the opposite.
Very common. People love to hate the Skymaster.

With the understanding that most of my maintenance would require a trip to the mainland (about a 30 minute flight to several airports and a lot more IA's), do you think a 337 is a reasonable choice - or would you be concerned and get something a bit more common, like a Seneca so the local IA's can work on it. I recognize there is wild variability based on each planes condition/history, so I'm really asking for your personal experience and knowledge. I understand I could end up with a lemon (and yes, I will be calling on an expert to do a very thorough pre-buy) and my reliability might be worse than average. Maybe even a more specific question - assuming I purchase a 337 in reasonably good condition with reasonable times, fly it conscientiously, and partake in preventative maintenance and don't defer items in annuals, how many "surprise" visits to the shop would you expect in an average year?
It's not so much a yes/no answer. Any airplane is expensive these days but YOU MUST remember that the fleet is getting OLD. Textron and Piper don't want the old birds around. Every year they will keep increasing the parts prices.

As far as your question about dispatch reliability? There's no answer. You're dealing with a 40 - 60 year old airframe...anything can get worn out.


2. Are the 5th/6th seats reasonably comfortable for "petite" adult women, or are they really just for very small children? My wife and daughter are in the 5'5" range and weigh around 120lbs. and they would probably be relegated to the aft (chivalry is dead!), since the rest of us are in the 6 foot range. How is C.G. with passengers in those seats? Finally, can 6th seats be added to 4 seat models, or do I have to make sure to buy one that already has 6 seats?

It's fairly tight back there.

3. This is the questions that always draws the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" comment, but I have to ask! I can afford it. I know there's no way of justifying cost of ownership, but would like to get an idea of just how unjustifiable owning a 337 is! I am thinking of budgeting 25-30k all-in per year for 70 hours of flying time based on my research. I understand and can shoulder the occasional and awful "surprise" overhaul etc. Just to give you an idea of my local costs - fuel $4/per gallon with EAA discount. Tie down -$150/mo. Insurance looks like it will be around $3500 for a hull value of 75k since I don't have any ME time. With that in mind, and from your experience, is my estimate of 25-30k high, low, or pretty close?

40 - 60 year old wiring/plumbing/hydraulics. Complex retractable gear. 4 mags. 12 cylinders. 24 plugs and wires. 2 constant speed props. Lots of rigging. Horribly expensive cowl flap motors and power packs, etc.

This isn't a stab at Skymasters...it's just commentary on the entire legacy general aviation fleet. You have to be hands on with maintenance and you MUST have a patient mechanic that's willing to work with you.

As I said before, the fleet is getting older and companies like Cessna don't want any light planes flying except 182's and 172's flying.

It's still fairly cheap to fly an older Cherokee/Arrow/172, etc but I have to warn you that there's never really been a cheap to own twin. You've gotta go into this with you eyes wide open.

Also, every airplane owner in the history of airplanes has had a rough first year. Doesn't matter how diligent your prebuy is...year one is hard on the wallet.
My comments above in red. Not trying to be alarming but everyone underestimates the cost delta of owning a fixed gear/fixed pitch single vs a high performance retractable twin.

As Ed mentioned above, Skymasters don't like to live outside. They leak like a sieve and older Cessnas are susceptible to corrosion.

Also keep in mind that I've not mentioned turbos, deice, pressurization, etc. That brings another whole set of maintenance requirements into play.

They're GREAT planes. I absolutely love my Skymaster but I fully understand the potential expense.

Your mileage may vary; good luck with your search.
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Unread 01-11-18, 01:36 PM
edasmus edasmus is offline
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Nice post John, well said! 👍
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Unread 01-11-18, 02:19 PM
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I think its safe to say that the people on this site are fans of the airplane. I love mine. I have flown it across the country twice from Coast to coast. I love having the twin over the mountains and great lakes. I also fly every year down to Loreto on Baja California, again love having two engines over some very desolate country. I have a turbo and have GAMIs and fine wire plugs and it runs LOP very nicely. I burn about 19 GPH at 30 inches and 2400 RPM. At 19K feet it flys 175 KTAS. I love it over the mountains. My annuals run from a low of about 7K up to the highest was 14K. My mechanic budgets a week of time and charges 4K just for the inspection, so 3K to 10k for needed work. I have found that if you are ok staying involved in parts sourcing, very few parts actually come from Cessna. most can be found from third parties at sometimes significantly lower prices. My mechanic is comfortable working on it and encourages me to get the parts as its time for him that he doesn't want to spend. He works on several Skymasters here in Livermore. Its very tight in the engine spaces. Best advice is find a small boned mechanic. Every so often I look around at other planes and always come back to this one. The only thing Id consider as a change out would be a P model but I have mine set up really nicely with Aspen, IFD540, and Stec 60-2 autopilot. Its an amazing IFR platform.
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Unread 01-11-18, 02:59 PM
6498w 6498w is offline
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Hi John,

I really appreciate you taking the time to address all of my questions - many thanks!

What I am really trying to do regarding the maintenance question is reduce the wide ambiguity by getting some real owner experience. I'm fully onboard with "past performance does not guarantee future investment" disclaimer, but online accounts from supporters are that the airplane requires "no more maintenance than any other light twin" vs the bashers that state "it will quickly drive you into the poor house". I am attempting to go in with eyes wide open, as you say, and so any and all direct experience and real numbers from those operating these aircraft seems the most accurate way of determining the cost:fun ratio.

Edasmus' summary of total annual costs was very enlightening, and roughly where I expected the mean cost to fall (somewhere in the 25-30k range for 70 hours per year, averaged over the course of say, 5 years). Are his averages relatively consistent with your experience? Again, I recognize there are outliers, lemons, etc that completely skew the calculations. I'd love to know your gut-level, "gun to your head" answer to the question, "how much do you spend in an average year on your Skymaster". Is it 30k for 100 hours? 50k? 20k?

I'm in a financial position to easily absorb any of those numbers, however there's a tipping point where a few years of 50k per year would definitely have me thinking I might have more fun using that money somewhere else!

Again, I sincerely appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to all my questions.
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