A word about western skymasters llc

[Jhogan0101]

Jim,
Glad you had a great experience with Western Skymasters

My skymaster is still in the shop, annual at $40k w parts so far

When i got to salt lake city, an older transponder was in the plane. Not the one in the ad. What kind of person does that? I had to argue with ron to put the one in the ad back in.

The skybolt adsb was uninstalled. He wouldnt reinstall it

The ifly gps was gone and he wouldnt put that back in.

I received the logs in a empty plastic swiffer bag, later on when i had a real mechanic look at them, he informed me many of the logs were missing or incomplete.

He sold me a plane with an unapproved jerry rigged cowl flap system (Consisted of one c172 motor) that his employed by him a&p signed off on (previous owner installed it) had to remove that system and install a entirely new

Also, he lied about damage history. The leading edge of the right wing was poorly repaired in the past. There was a one line description of it in the logs. It cost me $20K, the outside was pop riveted and inside some of the ribs were completely missing rivets. Here is the text from ron before i bought it.

“Absolutely the cleanest 67 out there. 2500 ttsn
Three owners since new hungered all its life.
1000 hr motors 350 hr props. No damage history at all plus perfect logs. My personal plane the last year
Great panel everything works.”

He talks a good game but he is full of it.

Also i later found that my prebuy mechanic that missed 99% of the problems had a prior working relationship with Ron that i did not know about going into the prebuy.

Im 39, have had my ppl for about a year now, bought My first plane 2 years ago (C150).
Ive had a lot of experiences in aviation so far and i can tell you it is one of the most corrupt industries ive ever seen.
The only good experiences ive had is talking to and befriending other owners.

[JimC]

I'm sorry you got stuck with a $20k repair because of crappy work. How long ago was the repair? It sounds like a lot of people didn't catch it. I passed on a Skymaster a few years ago that had a version of the IO-360 engine installed that was not on the TC, and there had been 17 annuals from 4 different IAs since that installation.

BTW, what is a C172 cowl flap motor? I thought the only 172s with any cowl flaps were actually the last of the 1963 C175 Skylarks renamed as P172Ds. IIRC, they had manual cowl flaps because of the larger 175hp engine.

[flyag1]

Originally Posted by Jhogan0101

Jim,
Glad you had a great experience with Western Skymasters

My skymaster is still in the shop, annual at $40k w parts so far

When i got to salt lake city, an older transponder was in the plane. Not the one in the ad. What kind of person does that? I had to argue with ron to put the one in the ad back in.

The skybolt adsb was uninstalled. He wouldnt reinstall it

The ifly gps was gone and he wouldnt put that back in.

I received the logs in a empty plastic swiffer bag, later on when i had a real mechanic look at them, he informed me many of the logs were missing or incomplete.

He sold me a plane with an unapproved jerry rigged cowl flap system (Consisted of one c172 motor) that his employed by him a&p signed off on (previous owner installed it) had to remove that system and install a entirely new

Also, he lied about damage history. The leading edge of the right wing was poorly repaired in the past. There was a one line description of it in the logs. It cost me $20K, the outside was pop riveted and inside some of the ribs were completely missing rivets. Here is the text from ron before i bought it.

“Absolutely the cleanest 67 out there. 2500 ttsn
Three owners since new hungered all its life.
1000 hr motors 350 hr props. No damage history at all plus perfect logs. My personal plane the last year
Great panel everything works.”

He talks a good game but he is full of it.

Also i later found that my prebuy mechanic that missed 99% of the problems had a prior working relationship with Ron that i did not know about going into the prebuy.

Im 39, have had my ppl for about a year now, bought My first plane 2 years ago (C150).
Ive had a lot of experiences in aviation so far and i can tell you it is one of the most corrupt industries ive ever seen.
The only good experiences ive had is talking to and befriending other owners.

I totally agree, aviation has become a breeding ground for corrupt sellers.

Based on current Trade-a-Plane adds, there are at least 2 out there with damage even though the "Brokers that's on this Forum" listed the airplanes with NDH.


Maybe most don't open the logs and look and the dealer get away with lies stating "No Damage History". It's a lie plane and simple.

I called one of this airplanes out to the dealer in an email: reply was something like this....

I don't get it when people are concerned with damage history from 20 years ago.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Jhogan0101

Jim,
Im 39, have had my ppl for about a year now, bought My first plane 2 years ago (C150).
Ive had a lot of experiences in aviation so far and i can tell you it is one of the most corrupt industries ive ever seen.
The only good experiences ive had is talking to and befriending other owners.

I am sorry to hear of your bad experiences so far - for those of us that aviation is our passion, livelihood and bad habit, we never like hearing of these types of situations.

If it is any consolation, I am 43 years old, a pilot since 18 and a mechanic since 19 - and I grew up in an aviation family - flying and fixing planes from our backyard. I think this gives me some experience in aviation - but everyday I learn how much I don't know. My most recent annual cost me more than I paid for the aircraft, even after doing an extensive pre-buy. That is not surprising knowing we are buying 40+ year old aircraft, and want to fix them properly.

That being said, it is not the most corrupt industry I have seen. It is however, not kind to those who do not take extreme care and responsibility in conducting due diligence. Even after doing extreme research, pre-buys, flights, inspections and everything you think to mitigate the risk of buying an aircraft in poor condition, there will inevitably be issues that come up.

Aircraft sales is no different than car or home sales - except for the fact that airplanes, for the most part, are a luxury item. With that - there comes opportunity. Continue to befriend aviation types and surround yourself with people that have "made their mistakes", and learn from them. Continue to pass on your knowledge as well.

I hope the rest of your annual goes well and hope you get years of enjoyment out of your Skymaster.

Be safe,
Jeff

[hharney]

Originally Posted by JAG

I am sorry to hear of your bad experiences so far - for those of us that aviation is our passion, livelihood and bad habit, we never like hearing of these types of situations.

If it is any consolation, I am 43 years old, a pilot since 18 and a mechanic since 19 - and I grew up in an aviation family - flying and fixing planes from our backyard. I think this gives me some experience in aviation - but everyday I learn how much I don't know. My most recent annual cost me more than I paid for the aircraft, even after doing an extensive pre-buy. That is not surprising knowing we are buying 40+ year old aircraft, and want to fix them properly.

That being said, it is not the most corrupt industry I have seen. It is however, not kind to those who do not take extreme care and responsibility in conducting due diligence. Even after doing extreme research, pre-buys, flights, inspections and everything you think to mitigate the risk of buying an aircraft in poor condition, there will inevitably be issues that come up.

Aircraft sales is no different than car or home sales - except for the fact that airplanes, for the most part, are a luxury item. With that - there comes opportunity. Continue to befriend aviation types and surround yourself with people that have "made their mistakes", and learn from them. Continue to pass on your knowledge as well.

I hope the rest of your annual goes well and hope you get years of enjoyment out of your Skymaster.

Be safe,
Jeff

Thanks for your words Jeff, I hope you misunderstood Julian when he said "most corrupt...." and that he really meant just the broker company he purchased from. The aviation industry is a pretty small niche group and has always been a very special, trusting family in my book. Yes there are scams out there and there are different approaches to avoiding those but in the this aviation family this is rare because the rest of the us (the family) will weed those bad situations out of the industry

[JAG]

Thanks Herb,

I did not misunderstand Julian - he was pretty clear in his message.

We (Herb and Jeff) share the same sentiment on aviation for sure. It is the industry that my father, both brothers, and I, make a living from; I am very invested in it's reputation and success. I was trying to offer Julian some perspective and advice.

Regards,
Jeff

[Lilcopetro2]

Originally Posted by Jhogan0101

Frank,
Im not complaining, im just trying to let people know how this guy does business so they dont get screwed like i did. If the gear that was supposed to be in the plane was there, i wouldnt have posted this.

The Gentleman failed to mention he had a FAA I/A do a complete pre buy inspection. He, his instructor (a supposedly Skymaster expert) and the I/A went over the logs and test flew the plane by themselves with me in it. He also failed to state he eagerly signed an acceptance statement before laying down one penny towards the purchase. The statement reads “ I accept this aircraft in “as is where is” condition. Furthermore he failed to mention I gave him a check for two thousand dollars for the difference in transponder.
Yes he should have walked. If I had known at the time he had been a private pilot for just two weeks prior to his purchase. Yes I guarantee he would have walked.
Right here and now if the plane is still airworthy and not all beat up I will buy it back for the exact amount he paid me for it.
Do we taste sour grapes here on his part. He made a mistake buying a plane he can’t legally fly and probably can’t afford to maintain properly.

[Jhogan0101]

Ron, im not sure why you opened this old thread back up, i guess its affected your business?

I would just like to correct a few things you said.

“ He, his instructor (a supposedly Skymaster expert) and the I/A went over the logs and test flew the plane by themselves with me in it. ”

So it was my ferry pilot who is a skymaster owner himself not instructor, a&p, and myself. YOU were NOT in the plane. Attached is a link to the video of the one and only test flight.

https://youtu.be/Y9q0g9kXWfs

“Furthermore he failed to mention I gave him a check for two thousand dollars for the difference in transponder.”

You misrepresented the sale. I flew all the way from Philadelphia, had to hire 2 guys, feed them, pay for their time and plane tickets to and from SLC, hotel. Items in the sale that were supposed to be there weren't. They were sitting next to the plane on your parts table. The first item was a King KT-76C transponder, it was changed to a KT-76A unit. I asked You about this and you put the 76C back in. The other missing items were “True Flight 650 Touch screen EFIS with Charts and XM Weather” “I-Fly GPS 740 with ADS-B in (traffic and weather touch screen GPS)” “Skybolt ADS-B out certified wing tip mounted system 2020 compliance” and the “Garmin GMA-345 audio panel with bluetooth connectivity” was not install but instead a Garmin GMA-340 also listing says “strobes” the only strobe was the belly strobe.

The plane was originally listed on your ad as $64950, then when we spoke on the phone you realized i was a new pilot and you said “that price is a mistake its $69950”

“ Right here and now if the plane is still airworthy and not all beat up I will buy it back for the exact amount he paid me for it.
Do we taste sour grapes here on his part. He made a mistake buying a plane he can’t legally fly and probably can’t afford to maintain properly.”

After i got the plane back to philadelphia Ron, there were so many things wrong with the plane that i had to ferry it to kalamazoo michigan to Griswold Aviation which is a highly recommended skymaster shop. Coincidentally the guy who runs this forum and is an expert in these planes who also lived nearby took a look at the plane and here is what he said:
“ Your airplane is in really sad condition. I was at Craigs two weeks ago and looked it over pretty close and I debated with Craig if it was worth fixing. You are going to have a lot into repairing this plane correctly. On top of that it really isn’t a good airframe to pursue all these needed repairs. I went back to your notes in the forum and if you paid what you said you paid on the forum that is a SHAME. This airplane is probably only worth maybe $35,000 on today’s market. I am so sorry you did not get the correct advice but not sure what to tell you at this point. If you really have that much into this plane then it’s going to be hard to get close to your money back after you spend all the money to do the required repairs. It’s a catch 22, keep and love it or get out from under it and loose a lot of money. I am here if you want to talk but I wanted to be real honest with you, it’s really not a good example of a Skymaster”

Ive dumped about $50,000.00 into this plane to get it in good mechanical shape and unable to fly it for about 9 months while it was being repaired.
If i could do it again, yes you are right i did make a mistake purchasing a plane from Western Skymasters.

Ron, you are not good people. You are the type of person that thinks everyone is stupid but you. I would place you somewhere between a snake oil salesmen and a dishonest used car salesman. Good luck to you and your business. Julian

https://ibb.co/M11hq9N

Parts table
https://ibb.co/CJJFBhm

[Lilcopetro2]

After reading every post in this thread one thing stands out. The buyer gentleman simply can’t accept responsibility for his actions. The ad he mentions over and over was posted a year prior to him purchasing the plane. I removed the ad from Barnstormers as the plane was being sold to Gentleman in the Midwest. The sale fell through due to financial issues for the buyer. The plane was not advertised again for almost a year later. During that time I replaced the interior and removed the non certified Helm 650 True Flight GPS. The new ad did not list any of that equipment. The audio panel was not a 345 it was a 340 model. My mistake I honestly didn’t know the difference.
The IFly GPS is a hand held tablet type unit just like an iPad. I’ve never seen anyone sell their IPad with an airplane sale.
No one held a gun to this buyer and made him buy the plane. He did what everyone should do. He had a good I/A do a pre buy inspection. He reviewed the logs completely. He test flew the plane WITHOUT me in it. There was absolutely no pressure at all for him to make the purchase. The truth is I didn’t want to sell him the plane. An associate broker had warned me about the buyer saying he wouldn’t even talk with the gentleman as he was such a pain to deal with.
To hear Herb say the plane was in bad shape was disappointing. The plane was not in bad shape. Yes it was getting somewhat close to needing an annual at the time of the sale. But it still had a few months to go if I remember right.
He bought a 53 year old airplane of course it is going to need work every annual.
The final point is the buyer of his own free will eagerly accepted my two thousand dollar check for the equipment discrepancies and then signed a statement saying he accepted the plane in “as is where is condition”.
The buyer having problems down the road doesn’t make me as he puts it “a snake oil salesman”. Buying a 50 year old high performance twin engine aircraft is a lot like having a fancy good looking high maintenance girlfriend. That is to say they are both going to cost you a lot of money.
Skymaster buyers forget one very important fact. For the same amount of money you spend buying a Skymaster you can’t even buy a good 172 Cessna. Unfortunately aviation isn’t a local charity. If you are going to play then you have to pay. Julian needs to put on his big boy pants and face the facts of life here. These planes are very expensive to own and fly.
Thanks to the members who were so nice and told the truth about dealing with me.
Thanks again
Ron Lillie
Western Skymasters LLC
President CEO