Skymaster valuations

[stratobee]

Listen Cole.

There wouldn't be a forum like this or a second hand market for these aircraft if it weren't for people much like myself, so why the patronizing tone? We were all first time buyers at some point. It almost feels like some people here would much prefer to keep people out of their "club" rather than being welcoming. Cessna 337 owners need all the new members they can get.

Much thanks to this forum, I'm well aware of the costs of ownership. I can afford it. However, what I can't afford is to overpay in todays market just because some poor sod has hangar fees to pay or a mortgage. Well, I also have a mortgage and bills to pay.

[Skymaster337B]

Stop dreaming, and start flying. The only thing that makes airplanes fly is MONEY. So, either way an airplane will cost you money...so buy in cheap so you'll have money left to pump into it.

[jchronic]

Well said, Stratobee. Being somewhat tired of flying OPJ (other people's junk), I've been idly watching the Skymaster market, and it's analogous to the housing market: I'm sorry you bought at a higher price, but don't expect me to make you whole for what you thought was an 'investment.'

Likewise, as in any enthusiast market, there's always someone looking to turn a fast buck (as they have every right to do). There's a 336 (in pieces) on Barnstormers that I know went at auction for well under $10K; the guy's now trying to get out of it for $18k, down from an initial ask of $25K.

Cole does have a point: They have a right to ask whatever they want, and may have a perfectly valid reason for doing so. They likewise have a right to sit on their airplane forever - or until they get real or find a sucker willing to bite.

Capt Ahab

[Roger]

Strato..

I believe this board exists for and through the civil dialouge of people who both aspire to and actualy own and operate Skymasters .

re: your comment: "Much thanks to this forum, I'm well aware of the costs of ownership. I can afford it".

What I believe some of us are saying is that given your post history it appears that money is of paramount importance in your quest for the "proper" plane. Whether that is because you don't have enough, or are just cheap, it's hard to tell. Skymasters and "cheap or budget" are never discussed in the same sentence, by people who own and operate them

The odds that someone like yourself would come onto the scene and be the one peorson on the planet earth to "beat the system" by finding a Skymaster in the price range that you seem to think is not "so 90's" and fly off into the sunset seems pretty absurd to most users.

Instead what will more than likely happen is one of two things:
1) You will find a cheap Skymaster, and to bring that aircraft to a standard that is safe and effective (i.e. runs when you want it it) the operating finances will consume your budget. or,
2) You will find the same airplane and cut corners on the expenses until it kills you.

So one really has to wonder if there is a level of civility that must be breached to keep someone from either ruining themselves financially, or killing themselves? I for one would vote for the practicallity of telling it like it is, and be dammed if someone was a touch miffed because it tweaked their ego.

[edasmus]

1973 C337G

2009 - $32,270.33

2008 - $34,665.76

2007 - $24,132.48

Each year was 100 hours +/- 10 hours.

Operating costs are: fuel, insurance, hanger, maintenance. No mortgage on the airplane. The airplane is paid for.

So far 2010 has been a good year. Possibly best ever in terms of cost but the year is only half over and anything expensive can break at anytime so we'll see.

Hope this helps.

Ed

[jchronic]

That's good info, Ed; thanks. Can you share what caused the spikes in any unplanned maintenance?

Capt Ahab

[edasmus]

These numbers come from my spread sheet off my computer. The spread sheet simply totals the categories for each month and I can read the totals in any category for the month or year. The "airplane" category had these numbers I posted for the past three years. My data prior to that included operating multiple airplanes under the one "airplane" category so 2006 and earlier was more than just the Skymaster so I do not have easy access to the totals for just the Skymaster prior to 2007. Since 2007, I have been operating only the Skymaster.

As for what causes the variations in operating costs from year to year is simply that some things cost more to fix or replace then others. I could go back to my files and dig out invoices to see exactly what went where but that will take too long. What I can do is recall from memory some examples of things that have either been fixed or replaced over the years since 2002 and the approximate cost for these things to hopefully give you an idea of what can all be involved financially.

Each year the "base price" annual runs about $4500 gradually increasing from year to year. That is to say if my shop takes the plane apart and puts it back together and finds no discrepancies then the annual will be $4500. Anybody who has operated an airplane knows that this never happens. Something is always broken or should be replaced simply from a preventative standpoint. If I have an annual that does not turn up any major discrepancies then I will take advantage of that and spend money on something that should probably be replaced but did not necessarily have to be replaced. I mentioned in my last post that 2010 so far has been going well. If the annual in this coming November 2010 proves to be a relatively discrepancy free annual then next on my list are all new flight control cables.

In the past several years items that have been repaired or replaced and approximate cost including labor are as follows in no particular order:

1) flap cables - $2000 to $3000
2) props resealed twice and other prop parts (2002 and again in 2009) - $1500 to $2500/prop
3) both vacuum pumps - $500/pump
4) new prop governors - $2700/governor
5) rear muffler twice - 2003 and again in 2007 - $2000 to $2500 each occurance
6) motor mounts on both engines - cannot recall price
7) starters on both engines (internal gears failed) - $3500/engine
8) throttle, prop, mixture cables on both engines - cannot recall price
9) windshield - $2500
10) several interior plastic furnishings and interior parts - $4500
11) much autopilot repair and avionics repair over the years - several thousands
12) new encoder - $500
13) replaced signal conditioner and fuel gage issues - $2000
14) new brake discs will be installed this fall 2010 - not sure yet
15) rear prop removed and repaired due to F.O.D. - 2007 - $1500
16) replaced all hydraulic lines for the landing gear - cannot recall but expensive
17) several electrical issues, rewiring, battery cables, etc. (see my post on "over-voltage") - $2000
18) new auto-pilot attitude gyro - $2000
19) over-haul second attitude gyro - $500
20) replaced ELT with used serviceable unit - $150
21) many hrs & parts to get both the original Cessna CHT/EGT system and JPI CHT and EGT systems working - $$$
22) fuel leaks, lines, and senders repaired or replaced - $2000
23) aircraft trim system was completely out of rig and need to be redone - cannot recall
24) electric trim inop and rebuilt to function proprerly - $1500
25) replaced rear cowl-flap motor (front one getting slow but still working) - $2000
26) repaired cracks two or three times and repainted rear cowl (it took awhile for the shop to get it right) - $$$
27) repaired a fairly large crack in the belly skin behind front left exhaust pipe
28) replaced fuel caps


29) had enough yet?


Anyway, hopefully readers get the idea. As I have said before, the C337 is a wonderful flying machine. They are expensive as any twin engine airplane would be. People who are considering operating these airplanes need to understand that the costs are expensive and can vary widely. No two Skymasters are the same. Turbo and P-models will only add to the costs, ALOT. If you can live with the costs, I would recommend the airplane in a heart beat.

A $15,000 annual is routine for me. A $20,000 annual is not out of the question and I probably would not start to cry until the annual exceeded $25,000. My smallest annual was about $8500 and the highest was $20,000. The big one was the first one in 2002. Last year was around $15,000.

Just remember, the easy part is the purchase. The operating costs in short order will blow through the acquisition costs.

Hope this helps! This is simply my experience. Others may be different. I enjoy my airplane and am mostly happy to have it.

Ed

Ed

[billsheila]

Thanks for sharing your actual experience. Mine is similar but not quite as costly. My approach to the airplane is identical, however, ie recognize it will be expensive, be happy when an annual doesn't go completely bad and use those times to continue to pour in funds to maintain some questionable and/or wearing items. These are old airplanes, and to keep them safe and properly maintained is going to take money. I recall some posts on this site of guys getting away with $1500 annuals...I thought it was just me, but I don't find this realistic at all. I have some historical bills for my bird from prior owners and from what I can see, the worst was a $25K annual. My worst was $14K and last year was the best at $4.2K. This is just annual, doesn't include hangar, insurance, fuel etc etc.

[sunnysky]

I've owned my Skymaster for over 28 years and still marvel at it's virtues.
Maintainance is getting more difficult (since the demise of my good friend Pete Somers, who was a great contributor to this site ) .
My wife will only fly in "sturdy" aircraft such as the Skymaster or say a 182.
We have friends here in France with the new generation stuff like Diamond Stars and Rotax powered homebuilts, but the owners wifes do not like flying in them. When we arrange a trip away with several aircraft, the other wifes always want the spare seats in our 337.
I think this says it all !! Also, trhe other "economical " aircraft I mention are also almost unsellable. The friend with the Rotax powered aircraft has been trying to sell for over two years, so ALL light aircraft are difficult to sell.
So, as long as I continue flying , its only a 337 I would consider.
Sunny Sky.
P.S.
We are planning a trip from France to Thailand in Nov/Dec this year. Going through Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Luxor, Riyadh, Bahrain, Oman, Karachi, Alhamabad, Bhopal, Patna Chittagong and to Chiang Mai. Can easily get the clearances and avgas is available. Don't suppose any of you U.S. guys are in to join us on such a trip ?
Long shot I know , as you would have the hardest part to get to Europe !!

[Guy Paris]

What happened to Pete Somers?

guy the old 72 driver....

[hharney]

http://www.337skymaster.com/messages...ht=pete+somers

[stratobee]

In the end, I wound up buying an old Aero Commander 520 from 1953 beginning of this year. I'm sure she will give me plenty of headaches and sleepless nights. She did perform well during the ferry from Detroit to California so there's still hope, but I'm already contemplating getting a 336 as a backup for when she's in the repair shop...

I wish all the Skymaster owners and the helpful people on this board the best of luck and hopefully I will see you around the airfields. I will always wave at Skymasters.