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  #31  
Old 08-29-09, 06:48 PM
larry bowdish's Avatar
larry bowdish larry bowdish is offline
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One of the concerns is that while these may not be applicable to part 91 aircraft here in this country, in some countries these may be treated as if they were AD's. In fact, there are 400 series aircraft, in other countries, where they advertise that "SIDS are complete".

So, we have a duty to all Skymaster Owners, both here and in other countries.
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  #32  
Old 08-29-09, 10:11 PM
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At least our input is valued by Cessna. I don't think that the 400 series owners had that luxury.

We, as a collective unit, need to be smart and educate the OEM as anyone there that was on the 337 program has long retired or gone west.
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  #33  
Old 08-30-09, 10:59 PM
ipasgas1 ipasgas1 is offline
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Our partnership 337 has been sold and I was looking at getting my own but I am now thinking I should hold off until this is all sorted out so I don't end up getting an aircraft that becomes too expensive to maintain???? How long do they feel this process will take before we know what the new recommendations / requirements are going to be?
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  #34  
Old 09-02-09, 01:47 PM
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Well assuming you are at least 16 years old, it will probably happen in your lifetime, but I wouldn't count on it. I certianly wouldn't delay a purchase based on waiting for a governtment ok, or a "Cash for Airplane" program.

Life is what happens while you let other people decide your fate.
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  #35  
Old 10-03-09, 01:09 PM
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larry bowdish larry bowdish is offline
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Cessna SID Update

This provides an update on the 23 draft Cessna Supplemental Inspection Reports (SIDs) being considered for the Skymaster. If you have read prior messages in this thread you know that Cessna presented these draft SIDs to SOAPA at a meeting on Aug. 27, 2009. Also in attendance at this meeting, beyond SOAPA, were other technical specialists and Skymaster experts, representing themselves. Cessna outlined the proposed draft SIDs at this meeting. SOAPA has requested permission to distribute the draft SIDs but Cessna appears reticent, perhaps because they remain in draft form and are under further consideration within Cessna. Our understanding of the SIDs, as proposed, is that they would not be required for Part 91 operators, but will be for Part 135 and international operators.

The proposed SIDs may be lumped into the following broad groups: fuselage, wing, tail, and engine groups. While some of the proposed SIDs are minor and would normally be easily accessible and be part of an annual inspection, many are significantly more comprehensive and invasive to the airframe. The fuselage SIDs call for visual inspection of the rear spar carry-through and upper rear doorpost bulkheads, nose gear torque link, rudder pedal area, and door lock mechanism. As presently proposed, the wing SIDs involve eddy current inspections of the wing attach bolts area which may require substantial disassembly of the aircraft to complete. Other proposed work on the wings involves removal of fixed panels to gain access to high stress areas for eddy current inspection; and loosening and inspection of the flap cables.(eg jack points, wing strut attach points, aileron hinges). The proposed tail section SIDs require removal of the rudders and elevator for eddy current inspection of the hinge attach fittings among other inspections required once disassembled. As proposed the engine mount SID calls for removal of the tubular engine mounts for inspection. Importantly, as proposed the entire SID package would have a compliance time of 20 (twenty) years from date of aircraft manufacture and every 10 (ten) years thereafter, with varying TTAF hour triggers for certain SIDs. The SOAPA sub-committee investigating this matter has looked at preliminary cost estimates for compliance of various of these proposed SIDs. As proposed the compliance cost would be substantial (exceeding $20,000 or more) and take a considerable amount of time. We would caution members that these estimates are early and based on non-final Cessna documents. If the final Cessna SIDs are modified or allow for alternate means of compliance or inspection, or some are eliminated entirely, then these estimated compliance costs could be substantially less.

SOAPA has organized a Steering Committee (the “Committee”) to address this matter with Cessna. The Committee includes engineers and other technical professionals (A&P, IA) highly experienced with Skymasters and other interested owners. In addition, the Committee has called on others outside the Committee with similar experience (including an FAA DER in structures who has owned 4 Skymasters in the last 20 years) for additional advice and assistance as necessary.

Committee members began a comprehensive review of the FAA Service Difficulty Reports (“SDRs”) for over 35 years of problem reports furnished to the FAA by repair shops. The SDRs have been a focus of Committee work because Cessna has used the SDRs as one of the key sources of information in the development of its proposed SIDs for the Skymaster series of aircraft. First, SOAPA filtered to entire SDR database to extract those dealing only with Skymasters. The resulting 1,773 SDRs were further analyzed and those having nothing to do with the SIDs, fatigue, corrosion or aging aircraft were deleted. The remaining SDRs (over 200) were then arranged by aircraft area and further analyzed against the proposed SIDs presented by Cessna. Each SID was also analyzed in terms of the hardware involved, eg. is this likely where failure would occur, could the proposed inspection result in more harm than good to the airframe?

At this point in time the Committee has not fully completed our examination of the SIDs nor have we submitted final comments to Cessna. To date we have identified a number of areas where we believe compelling engineering arguments exist for us to recommend either deletion or a substantial reduction in the scope of the related SID. Cessna has gone out of its way to solicit our views and has stated that their upper management wants this SIDs to be “for the benefit of the fleet”. We are hopeful that our findings will lead to SIDs which are far less burdensome than the draft versions, but this remains to be seen and will depend on future meetings with Cessna.

The Committee is also reviewing the matter of the 20-year from manufacture compliance period, which for Skymasters will mean immediate compliance for certain operators who are required to comply or for those owners wishing to voluntarily comply with the SIDs. This same 20 year time trigger was used in the SIDs issued previously by Cessna for the 400-series aircraft (despite opposition by 400-series owners and operators and the repair corporation they formed and funded to address compliance). However, in our case, the Committee believes that there are grounds for recommending to Cessna that this provision be modified for Skymasters. Work on this matter continues.

At this time we are in the process of finalizing our analysis of the SIDs and formulating a report for Cessna. Cessna engineering staff are scheduled to visit a Skymaster service shop that has aircraft in various states of disassembly for inspection. This will allow Cessna to consider the proposed SIDs and possible alternate inspection approaches to address the areas of concern with the benefit of actual disassembled aircraft to examine. SOAPA will have a representative at this meeting as well. We expect to fold any developments that come out of that meeting into our report and are targeting to have our report provided to Cessna by mid October.

We will keep you informed of any further developments or changes to the above as soon as we are able. Should you have any input that you would like to provide to the SOAPA Committee members working on this matter please provide this directly to SOAPA President, Herb Harney hharney@sbcglobal.net or reply openly to this thread.

Last edited by hharney : 10-06-09 at 05:42 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-03-09, 05:26 PM
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skymstr02 skymstr02 is offline
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Thanks for the update Larry.
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  #37  
Old 10-03-09, 08:20 PM
Alfonso Alfonso is offline
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Cessna Sid Update

Thank you very much for the update. Please remain to the Committee that the Cessna 336s in some areas are better that the C-337s, and that there are very few remaining C-336s.

Thank you for your good work, and best regards,

Alfonso Diazdelcastillo

N695AD - C-336
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  #38  
Old 10-03-09, 11:06 PM
Rafful Rafful is offline
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Smile Our Skynaster user/owner voice.

I think it's enough for me to say I am grateful, supported and trusted on these people (owners and /or experts) in this type of aircraft, which are operating in this discussion (as a counterpart), and that we are not only at the expense of findings of the Cessna factory. If I am not wrong, the standard owner of this kind of airplane is, at least, solicitous to attend his/her aircraft.
Thank you Larry. I (and I think that a lot of us) will keep in touch.
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  #39  
Old 10-04-09, 06:42 AM
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larry bowdish larry bowdish is offline
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Please understand that there are a LOT of people who have worked diligently over the last few weeks, and who will continue to do so.
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  #40  
Old 10-04-09, 11:44 PM
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Guy Paris Guy Paris is offline
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Sid

Many many thanks to all who have a hand in it.

guy, the old 72 driver....
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  #41  
Old 10-05-09, 09:42 AM
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Dale Campbell Dale Campbell is offline
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Sid Program

Larry,
Thank you and the others that are watching out for our interest. I know Cessna would like to treat all 337's in a blanket Sid program to cover their asses with all the lawyers wanting to sue. We need to prove most 337's are low time birds in good shape and maintained. They must look at most crashes are pilot era and not the fault of the aircraft. Good luck, Dale
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  #42  
Old 10-05-09, 06:39 PM
LeeChris LeeChris is offline
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Larry,

I want to add my thanks to all of you who are involved in this process. I am sure none of us want to be in the sky in unsafe airplanes. On the other hand, it appears that Cessna has mixed motives behind it actions. Neither do I want to spend a bunch on $ needlessly on unnecessary inspections.

Lee Henning
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  #43  
Old 10-25-09, 06:34 PM
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larry bowdish larry bowdish is offline
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The response concerning the Skymaster SIDs (Supplemental Inspection Documents) has been completed by the SOAPA steering committee and is on the desk of Cessna engineers in Wichita . A lot of work went into the final document and your steering committee pushed to deliver this in a timely manner. The final document is 38 pages of information and comments from all aspects of SOAPA’s concerns. From what the steering committee knows so far, Cessna engineers are re-writing the SIDs based on comments from the first meeting in Wichita and a visit to Commodore Aerospace in Okalahoma City . During the visit at Don Nieser’s facility, Commodore Aerospace, the Cessna engineers were able to see airframes and parts of Skymaster’s first hand. Don had areas set up with different parts of Skymasters that pertained to specific SIDs. This was paramount for these engineers to see, touch and experience. SOAPA and the steering committee is indebted to Don and the time that he and his employees spent before and while Cessna was at his facility. A great big thank you to Don for his hospitality to Cessna. The steering committee is hopeful that this experience and our comments will help minimize the impact of any SIDs which are ultimately promulgated.



The next SID meeting is the first week of December at Cessna’s Wichita offices. SOAPA will be present at the meeting to review the second draft of the Skymaster SIDs. The steering committee is hoping to be able to have a chance to comment on these second drafts but there is no guarantee that we will. Cessna may have the documents in final form and publish them as drafted. As far as the steering committee knows Cessna is trying to have these documents finished by early 2010.



If you would like a copy of the comments that were sent to Cessna please contact webmaster@337skymaster.com
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  #44  
Old 10-26-09, 03:26 AM
robw robw is offline
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SID Implementation

I would like to add my thanks to all who have worked on this and I guess that would have to include the people at Cessna who took the trouble to visit Don Nieser and (I trust) tried to get a realistic assessment of the situation.

At the meeting with Cessna in December I would urge the committee to also discuss the manner in which these SIDs are to be implemented. The cost is one aspect but most of that cost will be labour related and therefore the down time is likely to be considerable. If it is implemented as an immediate directive resulting in the grounding of our 337s the effect would be devastating. I guess a number of other commercial operators will be in the same boat. If on the other hand it is implemented with some flexibility so that we can stage them through the process over a period of a few years, we can probably manage it.
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  #45  
Old 10-26-09, 12:06 PM
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Jim Rainer Jim Rainer is offline
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Thank you for the email containing the 38 page report - came within an hour of my request!

It may be premature at this point but I would welcome a request to help pay for the work and expenses being incurred and help Don at Commodore, if he needs it.
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