Insurance costs

[rick bell]

you can self insure if there is no lien holder or the lender does not require it(most due)

[jimmuse]

Rick,

Do you carry liability but no hull insurance?

Jim

[rick bell]

yes

[Richard K]

I just bought a 1967 337B ,should have it next week.(I owned 2 others over the last 20 years) My insurance is going to be 3500 for full coverage on 45,000 with a 5,000 deductible in and not in motion, The liability part of the 3500 costs 832.00 I could have 1000 deductible for 3750. I've got about 900TT;600Multi;300 Skymaster.

Rich

[melray]

I moved up from a cherokee 150 to a 337 at ~ 250 PIC hours, and thought it pretty early. I did my primary training in the Bay area and northern CA, probably under similar conditions to Hugh. I think jumping into a skymaster right away is not a very good idea.

That first couple of years on a new license has been very well called the 'license to learn' period. We get instruction in the regs and the basic rules on the way to the ticket, and then up jumps the real world. Ever have to peel out of your jacket and try to cover the instrument panel on a dark night because the panel lights won't dim and the 2000 ft strip on that dark little island has maybe 6 100 watt marker lights on it and you can kinda sorta see it but not the trees, and you really need to get in because the weather for 100 miles around has just gone down in heavy fog? I was sure wishing for my Cherokee that night...

I had several great instructors, included one who flew in WWII, I had a lot of free time to fly and did, and (15 years later) I sure still have a lot to learn. Figuring out how to stay ahead of the airplane while learning new areas, new procedures, establishing new mental processes etc etc etc - is far more survivable at 80-90 kts and less than 2000 lbs . Even simple tasks like flying a pattern can be entertaining when there are 150s and 172s humming along at 80kts..(or less) to be merged with. Sure, Skymaster is great at low and slow, but wrestling with the aircraft before one is really comfortable with busy traffic patterns and ATC does not sound like good planning to me.

I found it a big leap to start heading down while 100 + miles from landing (and going into overdrive, really getting the airspeed - wahoooo). Bigger leap to learn real world see and avoid, real world weather avoidance. Bigger still to discover the differences between 1700lbs flying and 5000.

Sure they are very forgiviing, but 337s are serious, fast airplanes. Scud running and puddle jumping get really dangerous at speed. I would really recommend something slower and lighter at first.

Just my opinion, of course- but I can remember why the early Bonanzas were called "V-tail Dr. Killers".

good luck and good flying-

[Frank Benvin]

1967 337B

With the same coverage hull & liability. From 2000
to today our insurance cost and deductable has just over doubled in price

Frank

[KyleTownsend]

FYI

I got a guote of around $5,000 on for a 71 F model valued at $60,000.

165 Hrs TT
25 hrs time in type
35 total multi/complex
Private / Instrument/ Multi ratings
no other special training, provisions
10 hours of solo required before carrying passengers.

[Jerry De Santis]

My insurance went down. I now pay a little over $3,300 for 1,000,000 coverage with only $125,000 on the hull. I have more than 2,100 hours total with slightly over 2,000 of multi. engine. I fly a 1975 P337G and this year they did not require me to go for retraining. Anyone want the name of the carrier I'l get for you.
Cheers
Jerry
N34EC

[KyleTownsend]

Since I am in the middle of trying to buy a Skymaster, I thought I would add my two cents while it is fresh on my mind.

First, a brief review of SkySmith's book.

The book incudes a brief introductory history, some safety facts, and some information on what it is like to own and fly a skymaster.

A "top 10" list (actually top 17) of things to watch out for is also included. It elaborates on each item. It is the normal stuff that we have all seen elsewhere, but still helpful, including: rear engine oil leaks; leaky/incorrect fuel hoses; alternators (60 amp preferred); heavy cases and VAR cranks; windshield, avionics compartment and door leaks; hot running engines and good baffling; operation of cowl flaps, flaps and gear system; exhaust system breaks and leaks; cracked rudder pedestals; motor mounts; rudder pedestal cracks; hydraulic leaks; corrosion in the belly; operation of gauges and instruments (esp the fuel gauges); spar cap inspection (5000 + hours); normal AD's and SP's.

The next major section (constituting nearly half the book) is detailed list of specifications by model year (with some illustrations, etc). This is very helpful in comparing what model you want to try and buy. It includes the normally aspirated models, the turbo models, and the p-models. It even covers the O2-A and o2-B and discusses the differences between them and the civilian versions. It also covers the Riley Skyrocket and SuperSkyrocket models.

There is also an AD list which goes through 2000-23-21. I assume that this is probably updated occasionally.

There is also a list of STC's which is helpful if you are interested in various mods.

Finally, there is a miscellaneous section which covers various skymaster systems and operation (gear, fuel system, sample checklists, etc).

All in all, I found the book to be helpful. There is nothing there that you can't find elsewhere if you really dig, but the $40 price is pretty cheap to have all this stuff in one place if you put much value on your time.

[KyleTownsend]

In addition to SkySmith's book, I also found a few other information sources to be especially useful.

First and foremost is the Cessna Pilot's Association Systems and Procedures course. I attended this intensive course several years ago (I believe it was either 3 or 4 days). You pick up a wealth of technical information on the skymasters, get some real hands-on experience at looking at the health of various systems, get a nice bound compilation of material relating to the skymaster, and get to interact with a lot of skymaster owners who can share their own insights. This was the single best resource I have run across, and I would highly recommend it to anyone thinking of buying a Skymaster, as well as existing owners.

The other skymaster web sites and message forums are also helpful. Since they are mentioned elsewhere, I won't go over the list again here.

The FAA's aircraft registry (www.faa.gov) is also helpful for locating potential suspects or just checking on various registrations.

There is a CD that has all aircraft registration information (including chain of title with original documents) and Forms 337 on it. I don't have this, but have seen it. It is a great resource. I assume it is available from the FAA. You can use it to put together a fairly detailed history of ownership and significant modifications and repairs to any airplane.

You can also use the FAA's A/D database to see what A/D's apply to the model you are looking at.

Teledyne Continental motors site will also let you search for A/D's and SB's on the engines (you will need the engine serial numbers). You must register for the free "aviator services" in order to gain access to this.

When contemplating avionics upgrades, eastern avionics site is nice (www.avionix.com) thanks to their fairly comprehensive catalog, decent pricing, and ease of use.

[KyleTownsend]

Similar to the old real-estate mantra, I would say Engines, Engines, Engines!

Unless you are buying a really loaded creampuff skymaster with recent paint and interior, the engines are going to constitute the bulk of the value of the airplane. And, obviously, they are going to be the biggest "gotcha" if they fail shortly after you get home.

Unfortunately, it is really hard to assure engine health and predict how long they will last. Of course, you can at least tell if the engines are already having serious problems by reviewing the logs, doing a borescope, oil analysis, checking the filters/screens, looking for oil leaks, checking in-flight oil consumption and operating termperatures, etc.

Someone also mentioned a more invasive procedure that I believe I will do as part of my pre-buy. I'm not a mechanic, so I don't know if I have this exactly right. However, it involves removing the rocker-box covers and "rods" ? and going in through these openings to inspect the cam lobes and the ends of the "rods." Apparently, significant signs of pitting, wear, corrosion, etc. in this area would be a good indicator of bottom-end health, which is the big "gotcha" on many older skymasters. Supposedly, this will add about 5 hours of mechanic time to the pre-buy.

Another big "gotcha" is whether the engines have the VAR cranks, heavy cases and wider push-rods. If not, then you may as well budget for a factory remanufactured engine at next overhaul, which adds significantly (6,500+ per engine) to the cost. In corrolary, you must also adjust the purchase price downwards by some amount to reflect this reality.

I suppose the only other "gotcha" that can compare to bad engines is significant corrosion (especially in the wings) and any cracking/weakness at major structural attach points. This can render an airframe virtually worthless.

It's also a good idea to compare the airplane's performance to book in the air, especially if there has been any damage history. If the plane is bent, or significantly mistrimmed, it will show up in the performance (hint: look at the ailoron trim tabs. If they show major deflection in the same direction, watch out).

After these items, you are down to the second tier items which can be expensive, but not a nightmare, such as the gear system, electrical system, avionics, etc.

Well, that's my 2-cents. Good luck to you! Good luck to me!

[Jerry De Santis]

For those that are interested, I got my insurance from TRAVERS & ASSOCIATES located in St. Louis, Mo. Telephone 1-800-888-9859.
Ask for Chris. I found them to have fast service and good rates.
Jerry
N34EC

[KyleTownsend]

It has been my goal for quite a while to get insured in my Dad's 76 P Model. I finally managed it, and thought I would pass along what it takes for a low time pilot to get insured in one of these things.

First, I will say that it is considerably easier to get insured in a normally aspirated non-pressurized model (see my previous post) although you will pay a pretty fat premium the first year.

My flight resume now includes about 200 hours total time, multi and instrument ratings, and requisite endorsements. I have around 25 hours time in type (which I basically got as dual on an uninsured basis), and about 40 hours total multi and complex time.

My Premium? Around $7,000. I understand that it will probably drop a good bit after I accumulate 100 hours in the airplane, and will drop some more when I get to 500 hours total time.

The only requirements were 20 hours of dual (15 of which had to be IFR) to include 20 takeoffs and landings, and 5 hours of solo before carrying passengers. I already had most of the dual, so I just have to do the solo and I'm good to go.

[Kevin B]

Who did you work with my partner has a much higher dual requierment?
Kevin B

[LeeChris]

I recently purchased a pressurized 1973 T337G. Fortunately I had already checked insurance costs or I would have been unpleasantly surprised. I am a 600 hr Instrument pilot with most of time in a high performance retractable, but a new twin pilot, and no time in the 337. I was paying only $2300 for insurance in my Mooney with $170K hull value, 110K sublimits, 1M total. For the pressurized Skymaster, I am paying nearly $6,000 for the same hull value and insurance limits.
A number of carriers would not even quote me in the P Skymaster.
The best quote came from Sky Smith who was also very helpful in sheparding me through the process of finding the required school and instructor.
I purchased the Skymaster for the "safety" of the second engine in IMC over mountains, a common occurrence here in NW Montana. I have owned the airplane for 3 months, and have yet to fly it due to the extensive work done on the plane. I should be flying it tomorrow (fingers crossed).