Joe at JPI not a man of his word

[rmorris]

We all like to share information on these type of boards, both good and bad. I thought I would share an experience I had with the founder of JPI (he is the JP in JPI).

Joe offered me an upgrade a few years back, right after I had invested in his EDM-760 for my Skymaster. He said I should be using the new (at that time) 960. He offered me an incredible upgrade price, but said I had to wait until after it was certified. To make sure we were on the same page, I put it all in writing (yes I DO have a paer trail of this story) and sent it via email.

At each SNF and OSH I attended (almost every one of both) since that time, i stopped by his booth to check on the progress. There were always excuses and a 'bump' in what the price to upgrade would cost. This past weekend I stopped by for my semi-annual brush off, and he once again had a handful of excuses. I pushed and said he really needed to keep his word. He said to come back the next day and he would have a price (again, note that he had given me a price originally and then kept creeping it up). I think he was hoping I would not show the next day, so he could again delay things. When I showed, he gave me a price that was approx 10 times the original number. He literally had a bunch of bogus reasons, and threw them at me one at a time to justify his positon. As I shot down each one as invalid, he just stared blankly at me. Finally I very bluntly asked - "so you are not going to keep your word?", to which he replied "correct". To make sure we were all clear on things, I repeated it one more time, and he repeated his answer.

He clearly understands he is not keeping his word, which maybe in hindsight he should never have given, but I found the odyssey very frustrating. Bottom line - I think their products are pretty good, but if the man at the top will openly admit that he is not going to keep his committments to folks, how much business do you want to do with this company?

[Walter Atkinson]

If only your experience with JP were rare...

[rmorris]

I did a similar post on AOPA (I spread the word when a company does well, why not when they do poorly, eh?)...any way, a very lively discussion of JPI and their business practices is taking plac here:
http://forums.aopa.org/showthread.php?t=80717&page=2

I had no idea how many people would jump into the fray, so quickly. Apparently JP has been building a reputation, and not necessairly a good one.

A bunch of posts recommending folks look at EI products instead...while I have loved (literally, and had always told anyone who would listen) my EDM 760, maybe its time for a switch to another brand.

[Walter Atkinson]

My experience is that JPI produces the best hardware (next to the Xerion AuRacle) and that EI has the best customer service. Too bad EI won't address their software and owner's manual issues, which are significant. Insight has serious problems with their software and display in the G3.

As many of you know, I've been teaching the use and interpretation of engine monitor data for over a decade. It's a shame that JPI, EI, and Insight can't do what Xerion did--create a very good piece of hardware, software, and provide good customer service.

As the King of Siam said, "Tiz a puzzlement."

[rick bell]

i had to replace some probes and they fast, fair and efficient - go figure from you posts??
usually when these incident happen both parties are not listening to each other. when it
has happened to me i went down the hall skipping assuming

[JeffAxel]

I have a G3 in my P210, no display problems so far, maybe 25 hours or so. Lots of information on that screen too. If your JPI 760 is working though, I would just keep it. Had a 760 in my P337 and loved it, I would not want to change it for a G3....I had an older Insight monitor in the p210, so the upgrade made sense.

[Walter Atkinson]

Originally Posted by JeffAxel

I have a G3 in my P210, no display problems so far, maybe 25 hours or so. Lots of information on that screen too. If your JPI 760 is working though, I would just keep it. Had a 760 in my P337 and loved it, I would not want to change it for a G3....I had an older Insight monitor in the p210, so the upgrade made sense.

Let me repeat: I have owned and flown behind several different Insight monitors. The 602, 603 and 610 as well as the 1200. They were good monitors for their times. I still like the 610.

As far as I know, there is no problem with the G3 "display" itself--only HOW it displays the information and how the data is interpreted by the monitor software. As a result of my earlier post, the Insight people called me today requesting a conference call with their engineers concerning the issues I have raised. I am more than willing to take the time to speak with them and show them the data. The call is scheduled for tomorrow morning and is likely to last longer than they think it will. I have thoroughly read their manuals, flown behind the monitors, and they have some issues of scientific fact that need to be addressed in the G3 and it's manual. That they called me to discuss these issues is something I take as a positive step. I hope they do want to "get things right" as far as the known science and physics are concerned. The G3 software has one particular thing so wrong that it is dangerous. Another is equally mistaken but less dangerous. I am hopeful that these will be corrected.

Someone once said that the job of aviation design engineers is to create something that the pilot must learn to ignore! That should not be the case with something as useful and critical as an engine monitor.

I will report back concerning our telephone conference.

[rick bell]

you state that insight is dangerous in one area and a second problem that is almost as dangerous, I'm deeply concerned that you did not post a general warning of your concerns when your determinations were known backed up with a post of your documented findings. i find this morally reprehensible to allow other individuals to be in harms way when it could be prevented or at the least made aware of the serious defect that you claim are inherent with this device

[Walter Atkinson]

Originally Posted by rick bell

you state that insight is dangerous in one area and a second problem that is almost as dangerous, I'm deeply concerned that you did not post a general warning of your concerns when your determinations were known backed up with a post of your documented findings. i find this morally reprehensible to allow other individuals to be in harms way when it could be prevented or at the least made aware of the serious defect that you claim are inherent with this device

Rick:

I think it unreasonable for anyone to expect me to visit every aviation internet forum and post such a message. I have been very forthcoming on many internet fora for over a decade about JPI, EI, and Insight as well as Garmin and Avidyne concerning their engine monitors. Rick, late-comers are welcomed to the party. It's good to have you interested.

The fact that you are upset that there could be erroneous material in any manufacturer's manual is understandable. Being upset at me for not publicly degrading a company is, IMO, misguided.

For starters, look at the G3 manual and determine at how it identifies that an engine is experiencing pre-ignition. The G3 software is not in harmony with the known effects of pre-ignition on EGT. It will mis-inform the pilot. They have detonation wrong, too. These could be seriously dangerous issues, don't you think? I had informed them of these errors (and others, along with supporting data) several years ago.

I am encouraged that someone at Insight seems interested in examining these issues at this time. I applaud that.

[Walter Atkinson]

Gentlemen:

I spent 1+20 on the phone this morning with Dan Broerse of Insight concerning the G3 and the issues that I think should be best addressed to make it a better, more useful instrument. Our conversation was extremely beneficial. I have committed to continue our conversation and provide any hard data that he may find useful to make appropriate changes to their pilot manual and the instrument. We spent adequate time on the science and the physics and were able to identify the contradictions within the pilot manual.

I was impressed with Dan's approach and his sincere desire to understand these issues. This was time well spent for me and I hope for him as well.

If he is able to effect the appropriate changes it should be beneficial to Insight as well as their customers.