Skymaster valuations

[ipasgas1]

I have read quite a bit on the SID here and people's opinions concerning the future impact. A friend of mine had spoken with one of the folks on the Cessna Owners board and he knows with 99.9% assurity that the SID will not become an AD. However, I am wondering how the 337 market is fairing...are they selling? should a pilot buy one or wait and see? how many current owners are holding off on improvements, etc until a more definitive answer is given? how many current owners are considering trying to get out of it now due to the uncertainty? I have been into a single engine from a skymaster for almost two years and have never been as comfortable as I was in the skymaster. I want to enjoy my flying again but the uncertainty of their future is making it hard to warrant buying another if it is going to be worthless in a couple years. It is very upsetting and disconcerning especially for those of us who don't currently own but want one...again. It has me considering a Seneca, Seminole, Baron, or Duchess...very sad.

[edasmus]

This is simply an opinion. Others feel free to add or argue as appropriate.

The Skymaster market is not really any different then the rest of the airplane market. It is down, simple as that. It will most likely stay down forever. These are old complex machines that as the years pass, less and less people have the interest or means to operate. My guess is that it really does not matter the type of aircraft as long as they are of similar complexity. The older they get, the less likely people will be willing to operate them. There will always be exceptions, but the norm will be for the market to continue shrinking.

The used aircraft market of the 1990’s is behind us now. In those times, 15 to 25 year old airplanes did not seem too old to people and one could be purchased, operated for a few hundred hours, and sold fairly easily for about what it was purchased for. I think people purchased these airplanes with the intent to do exactly this.

Now times are different. Airplanes are more like cars. The older they get and the more hours they have the less they are worth. They will not hold value anymore. Again, there will be an exception or two but the norm will be for the value to shrink.

I think people who purchase airplanes today (or houses, condos, etc.), need to purchase them with the mindset that they will want or need them for the long haul. Turnover will be at a minimum.

I do feel badly for people who purchased airplanes planning on recouping their investment someday. Sadly I think these days are behind us. I have been watching Trade-a-Plane, Controller, our website, the skymaster.com website, and others, and have seen the same Skymasters for-sale for well over a year some of them for two years. Then I will see some of them on e-Bay, and bids are coming in at maybe half or less of what people are asking. I have put my own Skymaster through some of the online price evaluators and have had the number come back in the $38,000 range retail. Airplanes do not usually sell at retail. I paid $83,500 in the fall of 2002 for my Skymaster. Fortunately, I want my airplane and have made piece with the reality that it is not worth much to anyone except me.

Ipasgas1, if you want a Skymaster and plan to want it for a long time, then go buy a Skymaster. Assume that once you write the check, the money is gone forever. This way you won’t be disappointed. You might get lucky some day and see some portion of that money back, just don’t plan on it. I personally would guess that the type of aircraft will not matter all that much. The market, for a 40 year old airplane of any type, has dwindled.


Ed

[CO_Skymaster]

I agree with Ed. We have gone through that period where airplanes were not being manufactured and the only option was to buy used aircraft. I think since new aircraft are on the market, business will start to purchase those. Our aircraft will not be as desirable except for those who like the older style. It's like the people who collect vintage cars. I bought my Skymaster, because I like the capabilities and it was in my price range. I knew when I bought it that I would never get the money out I invested in it. I didn't mind because it does allow me the freedom to fly where I want on my schedule. It also bought the exact aircraft I wanted and don't plan to trade up.

The only problem I've had is when looking for aftermarket additions to my aircraft, we are not high on the list for modifications. Therefore, it takes a long time or never that it will be avalable for my Skymaster.

Karl

[Ed Coffman]

I was once told "if it has wheels, it ain't an investment"
________
Montana Dispensary

[K337A]

Here is a rare exception to the rule-

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...ritish-garage/

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009...or-44-million/

[WebMaster]

Maybe Bonhams should be contacted when one wants to sell an airplane. They seemed to do quite well with the Bugatti

[stratobee]

I follow the 337 market very closely as I'm on the hunt for the right plane. I'm not in a terrible hurry, but will hopefully buy before the end of the year. Anyway, it amazes me how huge the differences are. Clearly many sellers are stuck in early 90's pricing and think that old aircrafts just appreciate, no matter how bad the times are.

This is an example of that:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1979-...#ht_500wt_1182

$60K for a 11.500hr plane with a clapped out rear engine? I don't think so. Even at half of that it would be a struggle.

Good thing is I see a lot 337's coming on to the market, so there's plenty of movement. This will probably increase as time goes on. Rightly priced, they're a lot of airplane for the money. Which is why I'm interested. My funds are limited as a first time buyer, so time is all I have on my side.

[tropical]

Originally Posted by stratobee

I follow the 337 market very closely as I'm on the hunt for the right plane. I'm not in a terrible hurry, but will hopefully buy before the end of the year. Anyway, it amazes me how huge the differences are. Clearly many sellers are stuck in early 90's pricing and think that old aircrafts just appreciate, no matter how bad the times are.

This is an example of that:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1979-...#ht_500wt_1182

$60K for a 11.500hr plane with a clapped out rear engine? I don't think so. Even at half of that it would be a struggle.

Good thing is I see a lot 337's coming on to the market, so there's plenty of movement. This will probably increase as time goes on. Rightly priced, they're a lot of airplane for the money. Which is why I'm interested. My funds are limited as a first time buyer, so time is all I have on my side.

So what do you consider "rightly priced"?

[tropical]

Originally Posted by stratobee

My funds are limited as a first time buyer, so time is all I have on my side.

If your funds are limited, owning ANY airplane is a mistake.

[stratobee]

Originally Posted by tropical

So what do you consider "rightly priced"?

That aircraft should not be much more than $30.000 with those times, in my opinion.

Compare the above to this aircraft:
http://www.skymaster.com/aircraft.asp?control=46

[Roger]

The P is not bad. Put $50-60G's in it, radios, engines, etc., and you would have a pretty good plane for $110g's. Of course it is still a P, so it has a limited value like a P210 vs a regular or turbo 210. But for certain missions, the P is a great plane. Just not that user friendly, and the maintenece and insurance can eat you alive if you're on a budget.

And no i'm not dissing the "P" , just trying to give some advise to a newbie who doesn't seem to have yet experienced the expenses of a plane, which is even worse than a boat.

[tropical]

Originally Posted by stratobee

That aircraft should not be much more than $30.000 with those times, in my opinion.

Compare the above to this aircraft:
http://www.skymaster.com/aircraft.asp?control=46

If you bought this Skymaster you are looking at putting in about $50,000 to bring it up to standards. Of course, that's a conservative estimate.

[Cole5Oh5]

Originally Posted by stratobee

I follow the 337 market very closely as I'm on the hunt for the right plane. I'm not in a terrible hurry, but will hopefully buy before the end of the year. Anyway, it amazes me how huge the differences are. Clearly many sellers are stuck in early 90's pricing and think that old aircrafts just appreciate, no matter how bad the times are.

This is an example of that:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1979-...#ht_500wt_1182

$60K for a 11.500hr plane with a clapped out rear engine? I don't think so. Even at half of that it would be a struggle.

Good thing is I see a lot 337's coming on to the market, so there's plenty of movement. This will probably increase as time goes on. Rightly priced, they're a lot of airplane for the money. Which is why I'm interested. My funds are limited as a first time buyer, so time is all I have on my side.

Well, as others have pointed out, with limited funds, you might be better off buying a vintage corvette. Of course, some of those cost more than most Skymasters, and therefore are out of your price range.

When you dis someone for offering a plane for a price that you think is high, it does them a dis service. The guy may be looking at unpaid hangar fees, inheritance fees, and a mortgage. If the airplane REALLY interests you, give him a call, and make what you think is a reasonable offer. Obviously, if he doesn't think it's reasonable, he'll hang up on you. That's the chance you take, instead of whining about it to everyone who has already ponied up their money. So, pick up the phone and see if he is interested. What's the phone call going to cost you??? Can you afford that?? Maybe send an email, it's cheaper. However, for real negotiations, I have found that face to face is always best. A phone call is a good place to start.

Here, try this one on your budget. http://www.controller.com/listingsde...ER/1161645.htm

[stratobee]

Listen Cole.

There wouldn't be a forum like this or a second hand market for these aircraft if it weren't for people much like myself, so why the patronizing tone? We were all first time buyers at some point. It almost feels like some people here would much prefer to keep people out of their "club" rather than being welcoming. Cessna 337 owners need all the new members they can get.

Much thanks to this forum, I'm well aware of the costs of ownership. I can afford it. However, what I can't afford is to overpay in todays market just because some poor sod has hangar fees to pay or a mortgage. Well, I also have a mortgage and bills to pay.

[Skymaster337B]

Stop dreaming, and start flying. The only thing that makes airplanes fly is MONEY. So, either way an airplane will cost you money...so buy in cheap so you'll have money left to pump into it.