Access question

Wyoaviator · #1 02-09-11, 06:34 AM

Hello all 'master folks. I am seeking insight from other owners about what I believe is not a unique situation. I am a commercial SEL/SES and instrument qualified. If the answers at the end of this post work out I would be willing to get my mel/centerline rating.

First, some background.
My father has been affected by a neuromuscular disease. He is confined to a power scooter and no longer drives. Neither can he walk. However his mind is fine.

The family recently returned from a trip aboard the airlines. The indignity he suffered at the hands of the friendly TSA agent was something that I would not wish on anyone. It really takes two people to get him through security. One to help him remove all his gear and another to receive it after it has passed through the xray machine. It took 45 minutes from the time we got to the front of the check line until we had cleared security.

This incident has prompted me to look into alternative forms of transportation.

I had considered a 206 as the large rear doors would allow loading of the power scooter and other equipment, however getting he cannot lift himself up high enough to get into the airplane. That is how I wound up here at the skymaster forum. I liked the look of the front door, I believe that with the wing strut, landing gear, and entrance door configuration on the skymaster, he could get himself into the airplane.

I liked the look of the passenger access door to the skymaster, but as I got to analyzing the problem, I began to wonder if the baggage door is large enough to fit a power scooter through. Then, as I considered the logistics of loading the family, I figured that if he could get into the copilots seat, I would have to crawl over him to get to the pilot's seat.

So, with that, here are my questions:
1. Does anyone have experience with a similar situation? How did you handle it?

2. Does anyone have experience with loading a power scooter into the back of a skymaster? Could someone out there take a few measurements of the door size and let me know how big it is? I have searched online and cannot find the dimensions.

3. Assuming the scooter will fit into the back, does the copilots seat slide forward far enough that a handicapped individual could crawl into the back seat?

I apologize for such a long, drawn out post. Thanks for reading, and thanks for any insight or assistance anyone can deliver.

Wyoaviator.

J.T.Grant · #2 02-09-11, 04:03 PM

Dear Sir,
I appreciate the difficulty that you are facing in regards to travel options for your Father.
Rather than asking personal questions as to your Fathers size, weight, and strength, perhaps the best option is to find a member of the group near to your home base and arrange to give it all a Dry Run. After all, your Father will be the one with the final say in the matter.
I for one would be happy to let you try out the process and go for a short flight. I am based at KMDQ, which is near Huntsville Alabama.
Good luck,
regards,
James

hharney · #3 02-09-11, 11:22 PM

Wyoaviator

If your father cannot access into the co pilot side of a 206 I don't think you are going to find much difference in the 337. As I first read your post I was thinking that you were leaning toward the airstair door of the later model 337 but then you said that you needed the baggage door and that brought me back to the original swing out Skymaster door.

Here are my thoughts; I don't think the baggage door will accommodate the scooter. I don't have the dimensions right now but I could measure it for you tomorrow. A standard large suitcase will not fit through the door and normally I have to load them over the rear seats. The copilot seat will slide up to allow access to the rear seats or the pilot seat but I don't practice entering that way to often. I do however let the rear passengers out before with the copilot seat forward and it works fine.

I really think the 206 is a better idea with the large door in the rear and access on both sides for pilot and copilot. Just my thoughts.

skymstr02 · #4 02-10-11, 06:47 AM

Herb, The 206 with the large cargo door (U206) does not have a co-pilot door. The 206 with a co-pilot door (P206) does not have a large cargo door. It has to do with the strength of the fuselage structure.

Just a bit of Cessna trivia.

Dave

hharney · #5 02-10-11, 01:07 PM

Well, that is good to know. Thanks Dave.

Wyoaviator · #6 02-10-11, 07:06 PM

<<The 206 with the large cargo door (U206) does not have a co-pilot door. The 206 with a co-pilot door (P206) does not have a large cargo door. It has to do with the strength of the fuselage structure.>>

I wasn't aware of this situation with the 206 either. That would make getting Dad into the airplane a bit of a challenge if there is no copilot door.

Thanks Dave.

Wyoaviator · #7 02-10-11, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hharney

Wyoaviator

If your father cannot access into the co pilot side of a 206 I don't think you are going to find much difference in the 337. As I first read your post I was thinking that you were leaning toward the airstair door of the later model 337 but then you said that you needed the baggage door and that brought me back to the original swing out Skymaster door.

Here are my thoughts; I don't think the baggage door will accommodate the scooter. I don't have the dimensions right now but I could measure it for you tomorrow. A standard large suitcase will not fit through the door and normally I have to load them over the rear seats. The copilot seat will slide up to allow access to the rear seats or the pilot seat but I don't practice entering that way to often. I do however let the rear passengers out before with the copilot seat forward and it works fine.

I really think the 206 is a better idea with the large door in the rear and access on both sides for pilot and copilot. Just my thoughts.

Thank you Mr. Harney
If a large suitcase won't fit into the baggage area, I doubt the scoooter will make it, even with a set of ramps. I was originally thinking as you said about the airstair door. I really don't believe he could lift himself into the front seat of a 206, even if it did have doors on both sides.

The beauty of the 337 is that the gear and the strut do not appear to get in the way of ingress.

If you really wouldn't mind measuring the door, I could at least say thank you for helping me out.

I had figured, as I believe you assumed, that he could crawl into the passenger compartment, then work himself into the back seat with the front seat all the way forward. I'm guessing this is not a whole lot different than the process used in getting into the back seat of a 182.

Thanks to all who commented and provided advice. I haven't given up yet.

And, if nothing works out, we will continue using the airlines and dealing with the friendly TSA people. The beauty of a 737 as opposed to a 337 is that both the passenger door and the cargo door are large enough to accomodate everything we need to take with us. It is just a much more difficult process.

hharney · #8 02-10-11, 11:20 PM

I was referring to the main cabin door. Accessing the rear seats through the main door with the copilot seat slid forward. I don't think he could crawl into the baggage door.

Wyoaviator · #9 02-10-11, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hharney

I was referring to the main cabin door. Accessing the rear seats through the main door with the copilot seat slid forward. I don't think he could crawl into the baggage door.

I guess I didn't make it clear.

I was thinking the same thing. Have him crawl into the back seat via the main door, then run the scooter into the baggage compartment with a set of ramps.

One more thought.... (I'm really trying to make this work.)
If he were to sit in the copilot's seat, then run it forward, to load mom and the Mrs., then run it all the way back, do you think a person could climb over him into the pilot's seat? Or, some variant of that process?

Actually I believe that this whole discussion may be pointless if the scooter wont fit through the baggage door.

Thanks for your kind thoughts and your concern.
Wyoaviator.

H H · #10 02-11-11, 06:08 AM

You may want to check out a PA-32-300 single eng. or a PA-34 twin, they have big rear doors and you can fit any thing.

I use to fly them (not any more) and I think it would be your best bet.

H H

Wyoaviator · #11 04-23-11, 08:51 PM

Hi all, I'm back....

Anyway, thanks to all who responded to my initial inquiry. I still haven't done anything but I'm still looking.

I have yet to get around a real 337 to see how it works, but I recently saw an ad in TAP for a Pressurized 337. The rear seat was rotated up to the ceiling as if to make room to the baggage area, and the right front door was held in place by a couple of chains. Are these typical of skymaster setups?

I'm thinking that (follow me closely here) if I could open the door and drop it all the way down (chains off) pull the copilots seat out, then put "some kind of" ramp that dad could drive his scooter up, get him off, put the scooter in the back, put the rear seat down, get him situated, put the copilots seat in, then load and go like "unhandicapped" people, it might work.

I know this sounds like a lot of gyrations to get a man into an out of an airplane, but when you work with ALS, you do a lot of accomodating to make everyday life work. It would still be more enjoyable than dealing with the friendly TSA agents at the airlines.

I'm just looking for input/information and other suggestions.

Thanks for EVERYONE'S input and suggestion. As the ALS society says, I NEVER give up

Thanks again.
Wyoaviator

ConwayB · #12 04-24-11, 12:52 AM

G'day Wyoaviator,

I have attached some images for you to peruse including seating arrangements, pics of the cabin/cargo area (ignore the yellow tank and associated plumbing... that's for a smoke generator and is not usually there), a pic of an open cargo door and a pic of my aircraft's open cabin door.

The cargo door, from memory, is about 500mm high (about 19") and isn't very big. I think you'd have a hard time getting a scooter in there.

If you were to go for a C337B or similar (ie with cargo door and standard door config as opposed to the airstair), then I would suggest that your dad sits in the pax seat behind the co-pilot's seat if possible... or remove the co-pilot seat altogether. In that way, you can get to the pilot's seat no worries. It means that you are reduced to 1 pilot seat and two pax seats in row two.

I would have to agree with HH. A Piper Seneca (PA-34) has club seating and I think outwards opening doors which may be easier to negotiate.
The other alternative is maybe a Britten-Norman Islander BN2B. It's a 10 seater with great cargo carrying capacity, low floor level, twin engined fixed gear. A bit slower than the P337s but with 10 seats, you can take plenty of people anywhere. It's tough, has IO-520s (so engines and parts aren't hard to come by) and is very docile and forgiving. No gear problems and lots of room! I hope this helps. Cheers Conway

Wyoaviator · #13 04-24-11, 01:06 AM

Thanks for the photos.
This gives me some more ideas.

I concur that it would be pretty near impossible to get a power scooter into the cargo door.

And, with passenger access door opening forward, it would be pretty difficult to drive the scooter into the airplane, and make the turn.

I guess I'm back to a Seneca or 206.

Thanks again to all who have read my posts and given me advice. Aviation is truly a brotherhood.
Wyoaviator

ConwayB · #14 04-24-11, 01:13 AM

Wyoaviator,

Seriously consider the Islander BN2B. The four rows of pax seating have access from both sides of the aircraft so you don't have to crawl over each other to get to your seat.

Take out the last row and you have room for the scooter and a ramp!

I reckon you could get your dad into a seat and then be able to drive a scooter into the cargo hold.

The Islander is a British machine (so it's not pretty), but they've been around since the '60s, have great reliability, and are simple and easy to maintain.

The price may be a little higher, but if you're not using your aircraft, you could cross hire it to a small charter organisation and maybe make some money out of it.

They are pretty popular here in Australia... for island hopping in the north, they are money makers, not money wasters! Which is unusual in aviation.

Good luck.

Conway

PS Having travelled much in the US, I agree with you regarding the TSA. Absolutely appalling treatment of US citizens... and even worse for those of us not travelling on US passports. I don't blame you in the least for looking for alternatives. Unfortunately, thanks to Osama bin Laden and his ilk, we have to suffer this impost.

iswap · #15 04-25-11, 11:54 AM

Wyoaviator,
If you are still checking this thread for ideas, I'll post our experiences with our 0-2A (337B) and a wheelchair-bound pilot. I can suggest how it might work with your situation.

As others have said above, a different airframe might be better. But the Skymaster would be a great airplane for Wyoming, if you could make it work.