Skymaster Prices falling

[Skymaster337B]

I'm in the market for a P337. I've never seen them listed for less than $110k unless the engines were run out. But now, I've seen at least two this week listed for less than $100k, and with low time engines.

Is there something I don't know about pushing the prices down? Any future AD's or something? The price of gas hasn't changed much in the past year (although it is still high). Or is it the economy or something like that?

Any thoughts?

[stackj]

I don't know what it is, but I am finding it harder and harder to support my flying habit. I think the costs of everything relating to flying is increasingly out of control. For example - a simple 337B main fuel valve. $13,000. I only paid $20,000 for the airplane when I bought it.

Maybe I should have sold the two fuel valves and gained a $6,000 profit.

[Ernie Martin]

Several points worth considering:

1. If it's the overall cost of operating general-aviation aircraft, then the price drop should be across the board. I haven't seen that; have others seen it, perhaps on Vref?

2. The surge in the Euro may be having the opposite effect. A friend of mine put a twin Commander up for sale at a price that I felt would be negotiated down substantially. Almost immediately he had a serious inquiry from Europe and is about to close the deal at full price. It's anecdotal rather than statistical, but worth mentioning.

3. Finally, there are things that can be done to effect huge reductions in cost. I just did my annual inspection. By following my recommendations in the "Purchasing Parts" page of www.SkymasterUS.com I was able to do the inspection -- plus all the corrective work required -- for $1,470 (a cost so low that I had initially decided not to share it with other Skymaster owners, a decision I'm reversing in the hopes that this might help some owners keep their aircraft). For the two prior years the costs were somewhat higher ($2,090 and $1,960), or an average of $1,840 per year.

To be fair, these inspections sometimes uncover work that doesn't need to be done for the IA to sign off, but which we end up doing over the ensuing weeks. One might argue that some of this work would become requirements in the next annual, so let's add these costs: $1,450 in 2005, $170 in 2006, and $550 in 2007. If I add these costs to the above average, I get a new average of $2,560 per year. However, about $1,100 of these costs were for treatment in 2005 and 2007 of skin corrosion (sanding, zinc-chromate priming, painting) because the airplane is based in Miami, not in a hangar, and spends about 2 - 3 months in the Bahamas. If you subtract this, the average is $2,200.

Whether it's $2,560 or $2,200, I believe these costs are substantially less than for the average owner. To see how to achieve this, I'd rather you go to the cited web page, but here's a summary:

Find a mechanic who is honest, inexpensive and smart, then befriend and pamper him (I've known my mechanic for 10 years, he's the only person with free access to my house in the Bahamas, and I recently wrote his Will).

Help him during the annual, from removing inspection plates to disassembling items (during the annual I typically spend a week working full time with him, going home at night dead tired and filthy dirty).

Do all the parts procurements, based on the rules and logic tree in the cited web page (this is where the big savings are, and requires you to make lots of calls and Internet searches, but the savings, when compared to buying new from Cessna, can cut the cost of the annual in half).

So, keep your Skymaster by taking on some of the maintenance burden.

Ernie

[Pete Somers]

Thats very interesting Ernie.

In the UK to put a Cessna 152 through an annual has cost us around 7000 US dollars and that is an average cost. We cannot get involved in the inspection and with the Europeans (EASA) now involved it is driving out GA in the UK due to the cost of producing paperwork and getting a maintenance company approved to carry out this work.
BTW for those interested is cost 26,000 GBP to put an Aztec through an annual and it went in with nothing wrong with it!!
Need to put it on the US reg.

Pete

[Paul Sharp]

I'ved had similar experiences. When there is nothing that has to be done to the aircraft my annuals have cost only $2000 (US) or less. I located some excellent mechanics about a 45 min. drive away and always used them except when it came to overhauls (then I've used Sammy's shop in Carrollton, GA).

These (local) mechanics were so good that I always bought some sort of gift certificate for every person who worked there (5 people including the office staff) each year for Christmas. It cost me an extra $100-130 but that's peanuts and they never answered the phone with other than a friendly attitude. They were good, with integrity, and I never expected or wanted them to sign off anything less than up to snuff, but they were always considerate and would often do extra little things without charging. They'd say "We'll catch up to you next time" but I'd seldom see anything different on the next trip anyway.

[Ernie Martin]

That's exactly how to do it, Paul: get good, honest mechanics, befriend them and pamper them. If you add to that the parts procurement ideas cited, you'll have the lowest costs.

BTW, note that the costs I presented above include corrections of problems we found. For instance, this year my costs would have been $950 if we had found nothing wrong, spread almost evenly among my mechanic (who did all the unpaneling, detailed inspections, lubrication, etc, with me helping), the IA (who did final inspection and confirmed that the ADs were in compliance), and a third entity (which did three retraction tests under my mechanic's supervision). I then spent an additional $520 repairing things so that the aircraft would pass inspection (including replacement of two rocker arm covers, three pushrod tubes and a fuel discharge "spyder" on one engine, all bought in used condition).

Ernie

[Skymaster337B]

Europe is a terrible place for GA. I'm glad AOPA was able to stop user fees in the US. When I lived in the UK, most airplane owners kept N numbers on the tail, so that they wouldn't fall victum of a socialist system during the annual inspection. And $60K for an Aztec inspection is just insane! Down under (Austraila) isn't any better. It is cheaper for airplane owners to fly an American A&P/IA down there to do the inspections, or any other work -- and get it done faster too.

StackJ, about the fuel valve, were you able to rebuild it with new parts? If so, where did you get parts from? Specially, I'd like to know where you got a seal that fits between the two halfs. The parts manual doesn't even list that seal as something Cessna makes. So, is it possible to make your own seals for a fuel valve?

[gkey]

If only I had the time, I would have loved doing the annual together with my mechanic and very good friend, "Uncle Steve". But, alas, I do not even find the time to fly! Last time I got to the plane the battery was flat.

What a shame, that we have become so tethered to our office responsibilities that personal time gets sacrificed in order to stay on top of the corporate wave...The past year my work has kept me away from my house 214 out of 365 days (amlost 60%)!!!

Sorry for the creep. Just wanted to vent a little. Anyways, I agree fully with Ernie, your mechanic should become a dear, dear friend. Even with me not being present during an annual, Uncle Steve does the whole thing for me for $2,000 every year. I certainly cannot complain!

Now, let me see my scheduler for flying time: November - 2 days, December - no, January-maybe, February-maybe...

[stackj]

I, too, have a good annual situation. I have the advantage of being an A&P mechanic. I do most of the work for the annual. Over the past five years, the cost of the actual annual inspection has averaged around $450.00.

To accomplish this, I do all the teardown. cleaning, lubrication and present my IA with a list of gigs that I find. He does the actual inspection - looking in all the cracks and crevices, follows up on verifying AD compliance, etc. He then presents me with a list of additional issues he found.

We go over both lists, define those things needing immediate repair and those things needing to be monitored with estimates as to how soon they should be addressed.

I usually repair the items as soon as money and time is available to handle them (of course, critical items are addressed before further flight - fortunately, we rarely find items this critical).

So, annuals don't have a high dollar cost for me, I pay that off in time commitments.

It's just the cost of parts that kills me. The fuel valves I mentioned in the last posting... a $500 exhaust bell, a $400 control cable, an $870 rebuilt magneto. The aviation industry rapes us financially. There is no reason for these kinds of costs.

Yes, I know the quantity of parts produced is significantly less the similar parts for cars. But enough to cost 20 times as much... come on now!

Oh, by the way, the parts for the fuel valve are listed as NP (not procurable). That forces you to buy the replacement valve for $ 13,000.

Let's see now, ball bearing $.50, O-ring, $.30, spring, $1.00, Snap ring $.50. That's $2.30, times 4 ports - $9.20 plus $.30 for the shaft o-ring and $.50 for the gasket. That totals about $10.00 in parts. Wow, how can they live on only $12,990 profit? Of course, I'm sure they have to pay a high labor cost to rebuild it. That probably knocks about $70 off of their profit.

hmmm, could something be a little out of line here?

[WebMaster]

I notice that the prices for light twins, is generally, down significantly. The prices for 421's is down over $100K, while 414's are holding their own. I think it is buyer perception. I have had the luxury of doing my annual at my place this year, and will continue to do that. It drives down the cost of the annual. Fuel prices are another thing, however. To reduce fuel costs, I've been pulling the engines way back. It reduces the TAS, but improves the MPG.

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