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  #1  
Old 06-30-07, 11:21 PM
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Take off technique

I am having trouble with certain instructions I get from my CFI.
Regarding take off, this is his instruction:
1. Rotate at 65-70
2. Stay in ground effect until 90 KTS (blue line)
3. Climb out at 90 KTS (blue line)
4. Retract gear at clearance of other end of runway (about 200 AGL)
5. Retract 1/3 flaps at 300-400 AGL.
6. Configure engine 26MP/24RPM before turning crossfield.

He absolutely disregards the possibility that activating gear-up might cause penalty in airspeed. He says "you simply then pitch the nose down a bit, it'll hold at 90". He argues that nowhere in the POH is it mentioned that the operation of the gear doors will result in a speed penalty.

The POH only says "retract gear when at safe altitude", and does not make a distinction between which of the gear or flaps should be retracted first.

Although I agree that gear should be retracted first, I was under the impression that it should be done at a safer speed, such as 110 KTS, to compensate for loss of airspeed.

I also like to get my gear down before I enter the pattern. Maybe because I already had a gear failure, but I like to really focus on the gear alone a bit before the real work starts in the pattern. I still do my GUMP when in downwind, and what my first CFI called a "Last chance" (another GUMP) in final. My new CFI does not like this at all. He wants me to select gear down only as I turn for final. He feels if the gear fails, then you just overshoot, and stay in the circuit and work on your trouble shoot.

I have a problem with this, in the sense that when you are in the circuit, your workload is by default drastically increased. I would rather opt for finding out I do have a problem 2 miles out, so that I can divert to a safer place outside of the pattern (but close enough to make it back) to work on my problem at higher altitudes.

This is what happens when one has a second CFI when the first one moved before the job was done - too many cooks in the kitchen, with different recipies...and I'm in the middle.
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  #2  
Old 07-01-07, 08:58 AM
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I retract the gear after I have determined that I have a positive rate of climb, and that I will not be able to use the remaining runway for an unanticipated landing. I retract the gear before my initial power reduction for climb power setting.

I also drop the gear and the first ®ų flaps mid field on the downwind. The flap extension and the gear extension together tend to neutral out the pitch changes that each has.

I want everything stable exept the last notch of flaps when I turn final. This way I can concentrate on the wind deflection and other traffic.
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Old 07-01-07, 09:08 AM
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Here is a graphic from my flight manual.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg o-2a landing pattern 001.jpg (283.5 KB, 817 views)
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  #4  
Old 07-01-07, 09:57 AM
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A couple of things.
1. Cycling the gear, with single engine, will result in a -250 FPM at blue line, this is in the POH.
2. A recommended procedure is to attain 500 Ft AGL, then cycle the gear.

CPA had a recent note about the front wheel on Skymasters, and I don't remeber the details, but if you cycle the gear immediately after lift off, the front wheel is still spinning when it retracts. If you watch the gear cycle during the annual inspection, you will
see there is not a lot of clearance. The note from CPA said the front tire was wearing out on one plane, and not another. The difference was piloting techniques, where one pilot pulled the gear up at positive rate of climb, and the other waited until 500 ft.

3. At 500 AGL, cycle the gear, get the flaps up, then pull back the power.

4. Cycling the gear at positive rate of climb, or end of runway, is the perfered technique for conventional gear multi engine airplanes, where you want to 'clean up' the airplane. With a Skymaster, the plane 'gets dirty' when the gear cycles.

Take off
The plane wants to fly before blue line. The question is, are you? Are you ready to deal with an engine failure, (really the primary concern) before reaching blue line? At RTC, they teach stay on the ground until blue line. If you learn to fly a jet, it's the same thing. V1 is the place where you take off, and continue flying. It's after Vr.

Landing.
A stable approach renders a stable landing. I think the approach you use is dependent on your situation. Certainly, the technique changes on an instrument approach. Gear down at Outer Marker. At my airport, if I am coming from the east, I am frequently 2500-3000 AGL at less than 5 miles from my airport. Landing south, I'll dump flaps, pitch up, get the gear down, and do left base for 18. If we are landing north, then down to pattern altitude, and gear and flaps out at mid-field.
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  #5  
Old 07-01-07, 12:11 PM
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Regarding when to select gear down, I think I found the answer. Quoted from the POH, page 4-21: " ...the gear should be extended BEFORE entering the traffic pattern. This practice will allow more time to CONFIRM that the landing gear is down and locked."

Two issues addressed here: (1) when gear should be lowered, and (2) why.

Jakes:2, CFI:0. The saga continues.
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  #6  
Old 07-01-07, 01:45 PM
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Make it Jakes 3, CFI 0, tell him about gear doors.
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Old 07-01-07, 07:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by larry bowdish
If you learn to fly a jet, it's the same thing. V1 is the place where you take off, and continue flying. It's after Vr.

actually, it doesn't work that way. V1 is the takeoff safety speed. if you have an engine failure at V1 or below, you can reject and have stopping distance remaining.

in most jets, it's V1, Vr then V2. In the B727 V1 and Vr are usually the same under standard conditions. In larger jets V1 happens well before Vr.
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Old 07-01-07, 10:45 PM
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You are right. v1, then vr.
In this instance, could you condsider blue line v1?
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Old 07-02-07, 12:41 PM
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Your CFI is half right about raising the gear. In fact gear down does very little to detract from cruise speed in a skymaster. However you can adjust your speed at takeoff by merely changing your pitch. Your bigger concern is Rate of Climb. In that area, the cycling of the gear doors is of vital importance shortly after takeoff.

Keep your gear down until 500 feet AGL and it is one less thing you have to think about in case of emergency, and eliminates the gear door drag on every takeoff/inital climb out

Speed is of course more crucial on takoff than altitude (after all you don't stall a plane due to altitude, you stall due to too low of airspeed) but the difference with the gear down is so slight, it isn't worth sacrificing the negative side of the gear cycle, for the 1-2 knots the gear itself is subtracting from your ROC.
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Old 07-03-07, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by larry bowdish
You are right. v1, then vr.
In this instance, could you condsider blue line v1?
not really. we're talking apples and oranges here. in a transport catagory jet, an engine failure at takeoff is an abnormal procedure. in a light GA piston aircraft, it's an emergency.

right now in the airline world there is alot of discussion on rejected takeoffs. essentially, once past 100 knots you should commit to the takeoff unless you are absolutely certain the aircraft won't fly, which would be extremely rare. even in an engine failure you are much safer going out and working it out in flight rather than trying to stop on the runway.

in the GA light twin, alot more must be evaluated before trying to pin a "go/no go" decision on an airspeed number. GA planes are not built to the same standards, nor maintained to the same standards of a transport catagory, and the pilots from GA are not trained to the same standards as airline crews.

know your ability and your aircraft abilities, and try not to exceed either limitations.
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  #11  
Old 07-04-07, 03:50 AM
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The main landing gear themselves create lots of drag, because during retraction it rotates and the wheels turn into a barn door.

For me, I don't care about the end of the runway -- you'll never stop by the end of it if you've already lifted off, unless the runway is 10,000ft plus. So, when I climb out I check airspeed, climb rate, and most importantly both engines. Then I raise the gear. With two engines running the gear drag isn't that big of a deal. However, when taking off on a hot summers day from Albuquerque, the airplane will level off. So under high DA conditions I tend to climb much higher first before brining the gear up.

None the less, your CFI isn't doing you any favors -- unless you are flying a Barron.
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  #12  
Old 07-06-07, 01:50 PM
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Ill throw in my two bits...

In my opinion the proper rotation speed for a "normal take off" is at about 80mph (70kts) with a target pitch attitude of about 3-6 degrees depending on weight and density. A nice gentle increase in pitch will allow the aircraft to become air bourn and accelerate at the same time. I then hold pitch until blue line (Vyse "best rate single engine" Not to be confused with V2 "best angle of climb one engine out" more like red line). When an emergency return to the runway is no longer possible gear up. Generally at minimum 400' AGL flaps up, the whole time accelerating to 130mph (115kts) cruise climb. The last part is the power reduction at or above TPA with no less than 130mph.

A note on takeoffs. In a transport category aircraft (FAR part 25) we set (through manufacturer certification and or standard operating procedure) decision and abort criteria. A typical takeoff briefing in a Lear 45 is "will abort for anything before V1." Note that by certification V1 is the go point, at that speed there is no aborting! In the normal category (FAR part 23) there is no predetermined criteria. This allows us as PIC to determine when we will abort. The idea being that in a single and engine failure will result in stopping the airplane from any point in the flight. In the 337 as in any multi engine aircraft the key is getting to Vxse. Of course Cessna didnít bother to mark that for us on the ASI So blue line is the place to be. The faster you get there the better your odds of having a successful emergency procedure!

Something to remember about recrip engines is that at wide open throttle the engine is running very rich and there fore very cool. The number one time and place for engine failure is on initial power reduction when you come out of WOT and begin running leaner. With that in mind I climb WOT to altitude and generally leave it there until my decent. Props should be reduced to the green to save the cylinders, but I leave the throttles wide open (this obviously will not work for turbo supercharged engines.) This and my minimum AS allows me to climb with the cowl flaps closed (or partly closed when itís hot).

When Iím entering the pattern I always go 1/3 flaps first generally before joining the downwind. Gear down crossing the mid field or overhead if Iím crossing the runway. Then slowing for flaps as needed to be configured and on the blue line on about a 1 to 2 mile final. Rember the blue line is Vyse it is only there if you are going to be climbing on one engine! It really is not a speed to cross the fence at in other words once landing is assured a better approach speed is more like 85mph (74kts). For those of us who are interested in the transport category we donít approach at Vapp (best engine out angle of climb approach configuration) we approach at Vlnd (often times modified for SOP or WX) so that we donít pay a landing distance or break energy penalty.

_travis
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  #13  
Old 07-06-07, 05:01 PM
Paul Sharp Paul Sharp is offline
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Sometimes the problem is the CFI and not anything else. You either have to pretend to be happy with what he insists on until you finish with him or replace him.
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  #14  
Old 07-06-07, 08:00 PM
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So true.

Before my first CFI and very close friend moved, we had already spent over 30 hours in this plane. The new CFI wants to nullify everything we worked on prior to him, and do it all over again.

In fact, I have more knowledge on this aircraft than my current CFI. Yesterday, during a very long x-country, he fell asleep for most part of it. I let him be, as a subtle sign that in fact I CAN fly this plane (with now closer to 45 hours on it!!).
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