IFR Ticket

laen46 · #1 12-07-04, 01:01 PM

I am transiting from a 182 to a Skymaster. I am currently IFR rated. Will I need to take another IFR check ride for center thrust?

SkyKing · #2 12-07-04, 05:39 PM

Do you have a multi-engine airplane rating on your certificate? If not, then you cannot 'transition' from the single-engine 182 to the multi-engine CLT 337 and the IFR rating is immaterial.

If you DO have an IFR rating and a ME rating, then no... unless your insurance company requires something in its fine print. However, since you'll now be managing two engines nstead of one, with different protocols and a much heavier aircraft, it might not be a bad idea to get some DUAL IFR instruction, as a refresher, in the 337. Provided you have the ME or CLT rating.

SkyKing

Pat Schmitz · #3 12-09-04, 12:30 AM

Interesting ..... There are SO many interpretations on this requirement - that I find myself very confused about what is really required for ME Instrument in the 337... As you read this, keep in mind, that I am a conventional multi licensed pilot, (no CLT limitation) but don't care, nor have any desire to fly a conventional twin in instrument conditions - only my 337... Since I fly a 337 exclusively - I think it would be way to risky to try to keep proficient in a conventional --- It's not worth the risk to me...

Since I am a ME Rated pilot, without an instrument ticket... Then can I take my instrument training in my 337 from a CFI who does not have the Multi Engine Instument Rating? (IE: Single Engine Instrument Instructor only)

I am having trouble finding an instructor with MEI... Maybe I don't need one??

It would seem reasonable that if a SE Instrument Pilot that can get an ME rating in 337, and instantly use his SEI instrument ticket in the 337, then.....

I should be able to get my instrument ticket in a 337 from a single engine instrument rated instructor?? If this is NOT the case, then would it be better to go take my instument in a 182/172 - then just use it in my 337??

What are your thoughts on this SkyKing?

SkyKing · #4 12-09-04, 01:44 AM

As far as obtaining the instrument rating on your airplane, multi-engine land (private or commercial) certificate, instructors are certified as to the class rating, i.e., if you're obtaining the instrument rating in a single-engine airplane, the instructor need only have an airplane category rating with a single-engine class rating. However, for a 337, while designated a 'CLT' airplane in FAA jargon, it nevertheless is a multi-engine airplane, and therefore, to obtain your instrument rating in your 337 you will need a ME rated instrument instructor. Bottom line is that the pilot certificate must be appropriate to the category and class of aircraft in which the instrument training is being provided. See, e.g., FAR 61.195 et seq. As a further requirement, the flight instructor in the ME airplane must have at least 5-hours PIC time in the specific make and model of multi-engine aircraft. You'll find that requirement in FAR 61.195(f).

What you could do, if you have a flight instructor friend with only single-engine proficiency/ratings, is to let him obtain his ME/CLT in your airplane + the 5 hours PIC and then he could instruct in your airplane... maybe you could hornswaggle a trade for time or something.

Good luck!

SkyKing

SkyKing · #5 12-09-04, 01:48 AM

One other thought... since you own/fly a 337, my personal opinion is that it would be better for you to obtain the instrument rating in your airplane, since you're familiar with it and its operation. But for darn sure, I'd get that instrument ticket!!!

SkyKing

WebMaster · #6 12-09-04, 09:26 AM

I was, am a conventional ME pilot, VFR only, when I bought the skymaster. After getting it, I connected with a CFI-MEI, and took my training in the 337. Exclusively, there was no simulator time for me. At the time of the checkride, there was some difficulty getting a DPE who could check me out. When he wrote my instrument ticket, it was MEI, CLT. That got bounced, and I ended up with MEI, no restriction, because I was already conventional ME.

kevin · #7 12-09-04, 09:46 AM

Pat,

I would strongly recommend you get your instrument rating in your 337, and that you do in fact get one. Getting the rating in the 337 will give you practice at operating that particular airplane in the clouds, which is valuable both for knowing how to do it, and for confidence (which reduces stress) in the clouds.

Kevin

Pat Schmitz · #8 12-09-04, 11:13 AM

Getting my Instrument rating has always been the plan, but finding someone who can instruct in my plane has turned out the be the problem. I do have a CFI friend, who has flown with me countless times in the 337... In fact, he often comes with, as my safety pilot.

The problem has been that he cannot use my plane for his checkout - due to my insurance restrictions.

See the dilemna here?? I absolutely do not want to take my instrument training in someone else's conventional Multi... both due to cost, and lack of availability in this area.

When you mentioned that someone who has a SE Instrument could get the ME rating and begin using the instrument.... It sounded like a possible solution to my problem. I do have access to my old 182, and could use it to finish my instrument ticket and checkride if that instrument rating could be used in my 337.

WebMaster · #9 12-09-04, 11:13 AM

If you come to EYW in May, I'll be glad to talk to you about inadvertent VFR flight into IMC.

Call Scott Smith, www.skysmith.com and talk to him. He's in IA, knows lots of people. Used to publish a skmaster newsletter. Speaks at our gatherings.

SkyKing · #10 12-09-04, 04:01 PM

Pat,

It sounds like you might need that old thing we call 'The Mother of Invention' about now. BE CREATIVE... on your own!

Your ONLY 'dilemma' appears to be "The problem has been that he cannot use my plane for his checkout - due to my insurance restrictions."

Well, then, get rid of the skyscaper builder or, if that's not possible due to a bank's involvement, simply ADD a temporary rider to your policy and pay the additional premium just for the time it takes your guy to get his ME ticket in your bird, then cancel the rider. Problem solved!

SkyKing

SteveG · #11 12-12-04, 11:50 AM

Prior to acquiring a C337 I had single engine land & instrument airplane ratings. My ME training and checkride was in the 337 resulting in a CLT restriction. The ME check ride could be taken either VFR or IFR, if VFR then a VFR only restriction would have been added. If you demonstrate instrument proficieny, then no restriction. I do not see why Pat could not obtain his instrument rating SE, then use his CFII to come up to speed in the 337. Your ticket then reads SE Land, ME Land, Instrument Airplane. It's not apparent to me what would trigger another ME checkride but the worst case would be to retake the ME checkride IFR which would probably result in an IFR CLT restriction which he has said would not be a problem. Just my uneducated observation, for what its worth.

Kevin McDonnell · #12 12-12-04, 06:58 PM

Steve,

Regarding your statement "Your ticket then reads SE Land, ME Land, Instrument Airplane," if you don't pass the IFR part of the ME Practical test, then you'll get a "VFR-Only" limitation on the Multiengine endorsement.

Consider this: if it were as you say, then *nobody* would ever have to pass the IFR part of the ME test.

Paul Sharp · #13 12-12-04, 09:47 PM

I was one of those SE IFR, ME VFR pilots when I bought my current T337B. I didn't want the CLT restriction, so I went to one of the "weekend" flight schools on the border between California and Nevada, spent a Saturday, and got the conventional twin IFR add-on. It only cost me about $500, and the training was good and it was fun to do. So I never have to worry about the regulatory side of MEI. OTOH, being current in some other model would take some updating, and then there's always the insurance side of things, which ends up being as much of a matter to consider (if not more) as anything else

SteveG · #14 12-13-04, 07:24 PM

It's somewhat of a backdoor approach when one has a ME rating prior to an Inst. rating. I think most of us just take the ME checkride IFR and be done with it. Perhaps my previous post was misunderstood. It's, of course, the VFR restriction on his present ME rating which necessitates Pat's new ME checkride. I don't believe that Kevin and Paul and I are suggesting conflicting ideas. If Pat obtains his instrument rating SE or at least trains to instrument proficiency in the 182 which he has available then retakes has ME checkride either in his 337 resulting in a CLT restriction or in a conventional on a "weekend upgrade" he avoids spending so much expensive ME time learning the basics of IFR flight in a ME airplane with a ME CFII.

Mitch Taylor · #15 12-14-04, 12:43 PM

As I recall, you just have to go back and do one approach with an engine shut down (or zero thrust) to get the multi added on to your instrument rating.