Operating Costs

[norriscathy]

Getting very, very close to purchasing a NA 337. I've got a handle on most expenses: Fuel at 20 gph; insurance $1,000 per year (liability only, no hull); engine reman $35K; engine overhaul $25K; T-Hanger $40 per month. Just can't seem to get a handle on other operating/fixed expenses. I've numbers as high as $445 per hour! Once everything is in good shape does anyone have a good fix on 337 expenses? Doubt I'll fly more than 75-100 hours per year. Thanks for your help.

Norris

[Paul Sharp]

I find that figuring an amount equal to direct costs per hour (fuel, oil, etc.) pretty closely approximates ongoing costs for maintenance and servicing.

[edasmus]

Your fuel for a normally aspirated model is reasonable. Turbo models are probably higher but I do not operate one so I cannot speeak from experience there. Since you have your insurance and hanger fees nailed down, then the only thing left is maintenance.

It has been my experience that trying to approximate maintenance costs on 30 to 40 year old airplanes is quite challenging. I have owned airplanes for almost 20 years and I have owned my 73 C337G model for seven years and flown it about 600 hours. My least expensive annual has been $6000 and my highest (and first) has been $20,000 with the rest falling in the $8000 to $15,000 range. The airplane has been dependable during the years usually not requiring any maintenance during the time between annuals other than oil changes and the standard things one would do to keep an plane in good shape. This past year I have been struggling with a fuel guage issue that you can read all about on this site and I did have a pesky electrical problem a year or two ago that you can also read about on this site. Depending on how mechanically inclined you are and how much your IA allows your involvement in maintaining your airplane, I am certain you could safely operate with lower costs than mine. I personally am not experienced in maintenance and my shop does not allow owner participation. I enjoy my Skymaster and would encourage anyone to buy one provided they are financially prepared to operate it. It will most likely cost more than you think!

Ed Asmus

[Ernie Martin]

Norris, I noted that you just joined us. Perhaps you failed to see the second message on the Board (General Skymaster Info & Tips For Buyers). It's intended for first-time users and strongly recommends that you first do a Search on your topic before posting a question (Search is on the first blue line at the top of the screen). NOTE TO LARRY: Please, let's change the title of that message to "Tips for First-time visitors and prospective Skymaster buyers".

When you do your Search on operating costs, you will find many (perhaps a dozen or more) responses over the years, covering a broad range of users, rather than getting one or two responses. Plus, it's instant, rather than waiting a few days for people to respond.

I went and did a Search on operating costs and found lots of info. Then expanded that to annual cost and found even more stuff. Maybe engine overhaul or other terms will also yield valuable data.

Personally, I make a distinction between operating costs and overhead. The costs for tie-down/hangar, insurance, paint/upholstery and a "nothing-was-wrong" annual (maybe $1,000) are going to be there whether you use the airplane or not. I view that as overhead, not operating costs. So if a friend asks me to take him somewhere, I want to know the operating costs of that flight, namely how much that will add to my yearly costs. (I know that in Part 91 I can't charge for that, but I want to know.) Fuel costs have changed so drastically over the past year, and vary so much between location (I fly a lot to Caribbean islands, and late returns to the US sometimes forces me to land at big airports where Customs is open late and fuel is outrageously high), that I figure the operating costs as fuel + other, where "other" includes most of the annual inspection (my average costs, which you will find when you do Search, minus the $1,000 I figure if I don't use the airplane), engine/prop reserves, miscellaneous repairs through the year, oil changes, tires, batteries, etc. My "other" is now in the $80 - $90 range per hour of flight operation (not including taxiing).

Since you're new, I'll tell you I'm on my second Skymaster, I'm a mechanical engineer, and spent 10 years in the aircraft engine parts business.

On the matter of using the Search feature, please note that I'm also one of the Webmasters and I do it for your benefit.

Ernie

[norriscathy]

I did search everything I could I could find; that is were I saw the $445 per hour number. I wanted some more current "real life" numbers like the previous poster provided.

[tropical]

Originally Posted by norriscathy

I did search everything I could I could find; that is were I saw the $445 per hour number. I wanted some more current "real life" numbers like the previous poster provided.

A general rule of thumb is to take the fuel flow per hour X cost of fuel per gallon X 4.

So if your burn is 20gph and the cost of fuel is $4.00/gallon you're looking at $320 per hour. For an average C-337 I would say that's a close number.

Of course there are variables, such as condition of the plane and quality of the maintenance.

The cost to purchase is only the cost of admission to aircraft ownership. Typically the average airplane owner buys into more airplane than he can afford, dumps alot of money into it initially then begins forgoing any maintenance for the remainder of the time he owns the plane. Most new owners would rather sink high $$$$'s into gadgets and avionics rather than needed maintenance.

[edasmus]

Norris,

The last formula posted buy "Tropical" sounds reasonable to me. I fly 100-110 hours per year and in 2007 my cash spent was a little over $25,000. In 2008 I spent, $35,000 for that 100 hours. As "Tropical" mentioned, there are variables so no two planes will be alike. My numbers also do NOT include money set aside for engine/prop overhauls. If I still own the plane when that time comes, then that money will come from my "wallet." My numbers only include fuel, hanger, insurance, and maintenance. There is no monthly payment on my airplane as it has already been paid off. Hopefully this helps. My hope is that you go into this with your "eyes wide open" because it makes me sad to see airplanes abandoned in the weeds because owners got in over their heads. The Skymaster is a wonderful machine and a real pleasure to fly but like all airplanes, it does require its share of maintenance. A wise friend of mine years ago had a great saying. "There is only one certainty in life besides death, and that is, if it is a machine, it will break!"

Good Luck!

Ed

[WebMaster]

The most important thing, when trying to figure out what it will cost, is to arrange for a competent IA, with prior experience, recent, working on a Skymaster. My worst annual was horribly expensive, because the person was completely unknowledgeable. Make sure the IA works on your plane, and doesn't farm it out to someone else in the shop.

Ask if you can participate in the annual. There are about a zillion screws and inspection plates that have to come off. You can pay him/her their appropriate rate, or you can take an evening and do a lot of it yourself.

Owner assisted annuals save you money, and get you familiar with the airplane. Both of which are good things. When you do assist, ask questions.

[Ernie Martin]

Let me comment on the two postings just prior to Larry's message above. I also advocate recognizing that the "cost of admission" is more than the aircraft purchase, and the principle of going in with your eyes wide open. But because insurance and hangar/tie-down vary so widely, forget estimates. You should determine those two costs (insurance from quotes that will be based on your experience and licenses, hangar/tie-downs from similar quotes where you will park the airplane). Fuel costs also vary widely depending on location (I self-serve at $3.30 on my field, but 30 minutes away it's twice that) so you should determine them based on your location for the near term and guess about the future. Then all that essentially remains is maintenace (particularly annual inspections and engine/prop overhauls). And this forum has lots of information on that.

Still, my operating costs per hour are vastly smaller than those cited above. I don't include hangar/tie-down ($1,000 per year), insurance (which I don't carry), or the first $1,000 of the annual inspection (for the reasons cited in my earlier message, that it is part of the cost of admission and would be there whether I fly or not) and my per-hour cost is around $160 -- with fuel and engine/prop reserves. That's half of one of the numbers cited above. Since I fly around 100 hrs per year, my total yearly cost is around $18,000, when you add the tie-down and the the first $1,000 of the annual inspection.

On Larry's message, I couldn't agree more.

Ernie

[WebMaster]

Ernie is completely correct. Get a firm Quote on insurance. Call Scott Smith, www.skysmith.com and get a quote. I forget where you live, but a hangar for $40/month??? That seems awful light. I paid $300 a month in GRR.

There are people I know who pay $300/mo, and have to park outside.

[norriscathy]

Thanks for the info guys but still looks like operating costs are all over the place. My CFI is "only" charging $300 per hour for plane and instructor so I'm hopeful my costs will be closer to the $160. $40 per month for a T-hanger is all it cost here in the beautiful foothills of the Arkansas Ozarks.

Norris
Clinton, Arkansas

[norriscathy]

Ed and Tropical:
Thanks! You offer some very sobering advice; especially for someone getting ready to retire.
Tanks again.
Norris

[edasmus]

You're welcome! If you should have any specific questions, I would be happy to try to answer them. One other thing I just thought of, I live in Chicago where everything is overpriced. After hearing about your $40/month hanger, I'm moving to Arkansas! ;o) As a comparison, I am based at the Aurora Airport (ARR) which is 35 miles west-southwest of O'Hare. I own my standard T-hanger however the going rate to rent them is about $400/month. They are heated and insulated but a far cry from your $40 bucks!

Ed

[gkey]

Originally Posted by norriscathy

... I've got a handle on most expenses: Fuel at 20 gph; insurance $1,000 per year (liability only, no hull); ...Norris

My two cents on 2 things you mentioned:
Fuel. Every time I refuel, I do it to the rim, and then work out my consumption based on the hours in the Journey logs. Quite consistently, my fuel burn is 17 Gal/hr. I don't fly like a speed freak, so that's what I get at 150 - 155 KIAS @ 6,000 - 8,000 AGL.

Insurance. Probably the biggest variant. I've seen cheaper ones and more elaborate ones. I am insured for motion + no motion, on ground and air , with pax and 3rd parties injury (i.e. full inclusive) for $4,700 CAD per year.