337 or High Performance Single for low time pilot?

[SkyKing]

Hugh,

You seem to be 'rushing' to a twin... yep, we know, the 337 is a fine airplane. BUT, my personal advice to you is to forget about doing a twin until you're VERY comfortable in a single-engine airplane, with about 500 to a 1,000 hours under your belt... and in that time, experience some high-performance single-engine airplanes, such as the 182, 182RG, 206, 210, and maybe -- if you're so inclined-- some of the Piper singles as well.

We've all went through airplane 'graduation'... and really, there is no better experience than building time in some of the LSE or HPSE (Light Single Engine or High Performance Single Engine) airplanes to get the much needed time and experience. Don't be in such a rush to get a Skymaster... until you've mastered the single engine airplane. Time, my friend... TIME!

SkyKing

[hewilson]

Skyking,

Your advice seems wise is exactly that of my broker. He also points out that I am new to piloting and adds that if I decide I don't enjoy or can't afford aircraft ownership that the market for a C182 is much more active than for a Skymaster and I could get out of the plane sooner. This seems both rational and correct.

I feel though like the 18 year old living at home with no rent and a union job at a good wage...I've got money to spend! I just sold a vacation home at a good price and have cash not earmarked for any other project just sittin' around burning a hole in my pants. I also have that teenage lust for that specific item I want (e.g. car, girl etc.) and not the one my "parents" (i.e. those wiser pilots I know) want me to get.

I've always wanted a twin. I've learned enough to appreciate the safety advantages of CLT. And the real clincher is the plane is just cool. I look at a Skymaster and know that it is exactly what I want. That's the true teenage lust part.

I should be old enough by now though to take the wise advice and get some LSE and HPSE time before taking the leap. Its going to be difficult not to feel disappointed but I'm sure I'll get over it the first time I turn over the engine on "my" plane. Thanks for the advice.

Hugh

[WebMaster]

We went from renting 172's to owning a 337. I started ME training with 138 TT. Went to a school, focused training. Came back from that, started flying the 337. Immediately started IFR training. Got my ticket for IFR the day before we left for the Bahamas. Fly IFR frequently, and regularly.

Commented to someone over the weekend, that I was at PWK, leaving at night, in IMC. The departure sequence takes you out over Lake Michigan, and they hold you at 3000 for quite a while, out over the lake, before they will let you climb up and out. In a 182, or any single, it would have been far more disconcerting to be 10 miles over the lake at 3000 in night IMC, alone.
Get the plane you want, enjoy it, fly it often, get the IFR ticket, practice that a lot. Do your IFR in the plane you are going to fly.

When I first looked at a 337, it was for sale some distance from here. I looked it over, we flew it. There had been a Tri-Pacer that landed at that airport earlier. A couple the age of my wife and I. We flew over the crash site. They went 3 miles, had an engine failure. Plane was upside down in a field, fatal. I can not say enough about the comfort factor of having a twin.

My wife will never be a pilot, but listens to the radio, makes notes for me, and enjoys the safety, and flexibility of having our own plane. She did a girls weekend with some friends on Beaver Island, northern Lake Michigan. I picked her up, and we went direct for Meigs Field, straight down the lake. Would never consider that in any single.

The fatality that prompted the Lycoming recall was a Malibu that lost an engine over Lake Michigan, at altitude. They tried to glide to BEH, and didn't make it.

IF you want your companion to be comfortable with your flying, do it in a safer plane. I don't consider any single to be safer.

One of the folks who did a presentation at Nashville flys across the Atlantic, on a regular basis. He bought a Skymaster to do it safely. Any single has inherent safety concerns. Pilatus and Socata both make high performance single engine TurboProp planes. Everyone knows a turbine is reliable. Yet, a PC-12 had a dead engine, and went down in the Pacific. A TBM had a dead engine, and went down in the Atlantic. Bad places to only have one engine, because no matter how reliable it is, when it fails, you are all done.
Just my opinion.

[Guy Paris]

Hugh,
In my humble opinion, I would have to say any primary trainer is going to take some sort of a beating. Use someones nice new Cessna 172 for that. Why have that be your dream airplane? Approach and departure stalls equal shock cooling and higher cylinder head temps. Hard landings touch and goes, forgetting the cowl flaps, and just maybe the gear. It does happen. Running full rich equals fouled plugs. Gear up gear down excessively etc. etc. Its not that it can’t be done, but why subject your future pride and joy to that? I know I would not want my bird to be used for primary training and you probably wont find many owners who would. Just recurrent training at times pains me. Wish I could go and beat up a sim somewhere.
Guy, the old72 driver....

[WebMaster]

Primary training is hard on engines and airframes, and won't show up for a couple of years. But then, things will be handfuls of problems.
Rent a 172 or a warrior, go learn to fly.
Do the ME in someone else's plane.
Then get your plane.
Talk about shock cooling, when you feather the engine in a ME, things cool down fast. Then, you have to restart it. Huge loads on the engine, right now.

[hewilson]

I'm well along in my primary training. I'm soloing and up to 30 hrs. Am not able to fly much for the next two weeks due to work scheduling but hope to push hard after that to be done by the end of Oct. My plan then would be to go straight to accelrated ME training at a school and complete that within a week which I understand is quite a reasonable goal. It would be at that time that I want to have my own Skymaster ready to go. Even if I did the ME training in my own plane, though the engine out sequence is hard on an engine, it would not be anywhere near as hard as primary training would be.

All that having been said, essentially every pilot I know is trying to talk me out of it. Most everyone says to get hours in a high performance and complex a/c first. But what i don't get is this: I'm going to have to get the high performance/complex experience in some aircraft and at some time. What's wrong with that plane being a nice safe tandem twin that I own?

My broker is also a good friend and I know he has my best interests in mind. I know him well and trust him so I do believe he has my best interests primary. He argues against going straight to the Skymaster. But damn, what I WANT is that Skymaster. Its a strong urge to overcome because I believe it is do-able and safe. Others are trying to sway me and many of those who are doing so are experienced and wise so their opinion carries weight with me. But Larry just made a strong case for the Skymaster (see above).

I'm still mulling it over.

Hugh

[Kevin McDole]

Hugh,

I tend to agree with SkyKing - it sounds like you're rushing it a bit. The NTSB records are full of fatalities of pilots with more airplane than they could handle. At only 30 hours, you're 100 short of Larry's starting time - and he's your biggest supporter.

If you do go straight to the Skymaster, then consider flying everywhere with an instructor for about the first 100 hours or so. There's a lot going on in a complex aircraft - and your eyes will be inside the cockpit way too much. In a twin, there's even more stuff going on. You can get overloaded (task-wise) easily. If you fly with an instructor until the tasks become second nature, then you'll be in a better position to handle the aircraft alone.

If you haven't done so already, have your instructor take you up in a complex high performance aircraft - one that flies the pattern 20 knots faster than you're sued to. You'll see how quickly you can get behind this type of aircraft. It's not hard to overcome this, but it takes time and practice.

Did you figure out how to get insurance?

[Bob Cook]

Hugh

Suggest ;

1) go get the SBS rating.

2) go to RTC and get a good initial training course on the skymaster.

3) go find a good SM pilot and fly with him for a few X country trips that can be working in with your instrument rating.

4) Get to know the various 337's and determine your needs by your intended "missions".

5) stay away from a "P" model for awhile and trade up if you get the urge..... reasons........ insurance companies dislike the "P" as they can get into more precarious forms of wx.

6) The 337 is a big 182 and is very little different in it's handling quality to the uninitiated.

7) The 337 is a good 1st twin that does not require the "trigger finger" needed on a sbs twin.

8) Enjoy the experience, gain from others, and follow your instincts. Most important make sure you have fuel on board !!!

9) Life is short just don't make it shorter !

10) You should enjoy the skymaster.. it is a very "forgiving" aircraft if you know it and it's limitations (along with your own).


Bob

[hewilson]

I've said it before but this a great site. Every day I have pointless conversations about things that don't get my job done and which piss me off with people who don't know squat but think they do. In my world that is usually insurance companies and hospital administartors. <Occasionally administartive nurses but the bedside nurses are usually pretty cool>

Then I come here and get solid real world advice about something I'm interested in from people who know what the hell they are talking about. Renews my faith in America. What a beautiful country.

Anyway, off my soap box. Thanks for all the advice guys. I'm settling into the idea of a 182 for a while before the Skymaster. I'll be a bit disappointed but it is probably the wiser path. Kevin's point about flying in the pattern 20 knots faster than one is used to is a good one...among the others. I remember trying to explain to a friend who is not a pilot how confusing it was the first time I flew in the pattern and how fast things seemed to come up on you. Got confused on the radio. Fixated on the ASI. Head in the cockpit. And that was in a 172!

As to the insurance, it would be do-able but expensive. The money could be spent on renting a 182 for a while or even buying one to turn over later.

In any event, this flying stuff sure is cool and I guess I should be happy that i have so much to llok forward to instead of being frustrated I can't have it all now.

Hugh

Hugh:

I've got a very similar story to Larry's. I had about 200 hours and a private license and wanted to buy my first plane. After CONSIDERABLE research, I decided on a Skymaster.

Everyone tried to steer me away from a twin, even CLT just because of additional speed, tasks, etc. The conventional, and probably best wisdom, is to build about 500 hours in complex high performance singles. First it will make your insurance a bunch cheaper, and also, you just get used to things going much faster. However . . .

Against better judgment and conventional wisdom, I bought my 66 337A, got a ME CLT limited rating within a couple of weeks, and then got my instrument rating in it about 3 months later.

Honestly, I wouldn't do it any differently now in hindsight. The differences between you and me from what I understand is that I had a bit more total time in a single than you currently do and had done a number of 2+ hour cross countries with extremely experienced pilots in differing conditions. I also had a single lose an engine on takeof at about 200 agl. That honestly pushed me more in the direction of the CLT twin.

I've been putting 200+ hours a year on it and use it for business, and the insurance costs were cut in half this year because of everything finally coming together, total time, hangar, instrument rating, time in last 90 days, etc.

My 2 cents worth.

Keven
________
Dodge razor specifications

[Ron Ball]

Hugh, go for it. My son ,now 36 got his license 6 years ago, We have had a T-337B 1967 in the family since new. My dad and I flew it. My son got his license at about 65 hours. Got checked out, after the warrior, in 172, then 182, then bonanza. At 100 hrs I bought him a normal aspitarated 337. My mechanic and him flew to Teaxas to pick it up, he jumped in and flew it home, in left seat, with my mechanic, who was qualified in the skymaster. First few landings a little rough, but by the time he got home he was doing well. He said allot easier to fly than the bonaza. Insurance required 25 hours of dual and a centerline rating. He got that and now has 500 hours, most in skymasters. We sold the plane after 50-75 hours and he now flys the original skymaster and I bought a P-337. we fly together allot. A Skymaster is as easy to fly as a 210, and safer.

[Frank Benvin]

We have had 337's since 1978. Dad had 50Hrs training on 172's finished his training for his private licence on the skymaster and did his ride for his private licence in our skymaster. I had 250 Hrs in 172 and 150's and when and got my 337 rating. It all depend's on your ability to learn.
Some can master it a few hours while others it takes 10 to 100 times longer.

Frank

[Richard]

My 337 was the first airplane I've owned. Bought it when I started my lessons. Had my ME in 52 hours and started flying it then. I've had people tell me that I was making a mistake, but I've never regreted it. The Skymaster to me flies similar to a 182 with retractable gear. It's very forgiving, and docile. My two cents.

[Ernie Martin]

Hugh:

You seemed to have made up your mind to start with a 182. For insurance reasons it's a good idea. But that's it. For all other reasons, going directly into a Skymaster makes lots of sense. I did it and found the transition from a 182 with fixed gear into a 337 seamless.

I do agree with others that it's helpful not to overstress your new 337 with too many touch-and-gos and engine-outs. For that reason, get your private in a single, and rent a single for a while, until you're really comfortable with your flying and your landings are consistently smooth. Then move over to the 337 and do your ME training with an instructor who is cognizant of stressing the airplane; I think such an instructor can format the lessons so as not to unduly stress the airplane.

Ernie