labor fees too much? Annual inspection question

rmorris · #1 11-15-09, 11:05 AM

Below is an excerpt from an email I sent to a mechanic I trust to get his opinion. it occurs to me that getting some more opinions out there would also be worthwhile. Please qualify your opinions with a little background (ie you are a mechanic, your an owner but had xyz experince, etc). Thanks (and I can be reached directly at rmorris@agsi.us)
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Basically not even getting to the other items, he had 45.5 hrs on the front engine for r&r of the front exhaust, r&r (and replacing the piston rings with a new set) on cyl #3 & cyl #6 - both front engine, and replacing 10 adel clamps front engine compartment - plus another 3 hrs to time the mag on the front engine. He told me that was how much time his top engine guy took and that he had issues along the way. I think even with issues this was way too much. Any idea on what reasonable times (even adding in a little for 'issues') would be on this set of items.

I went to test the airplane today and the front engine is not making full power, nor full fuel flow for take-off. Run-up looks fine. When I throw the throttle forward I get around 26.5 on both the rpm and manifold, and 15.6 on the fuel flow. I did 2 take-offs that way, then landed it and asked him to look at it. I was thinking it was fuel flow being set low on the high side, but the more I think about the more I think it might have just been the turbo wastegate not opening, or partially opening.

Just once I want to take a plane in for work, and NOT have a huge story to tell.
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-Robert
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tropical · #2 11-15-09, 04:19 PM

As far as the work performed, I don't see a problem with the time billed out for what you described.

Since I don't know the history of your airplane I can't really comment about the second part of the engine not developing power without some more background info. Was the plane producing rated power before you took it in?

And I hold an A&P and IA and also a C337 owner.

Skymaster337B · #3 11-15-09, 08:17 PM

The front engine mags are easier to check than the rear engine, but often involves removing allot of stuff just to get to the mags...especially with a turbo version, so 3 hrs of labor seems like a real good deal to me. As for low RPM, also check that the propeller cable travel allows full contact with the prop governor high RPM stop -- if not, it is adjustable.

If the exhaust clamp screws were rusted...and it usually is...then it can take many more hours to remove the exhaust system. Also, Skymaster cylinders are not as easy to R&R as most general aviation planes...because of the baffling and cowling.

rmorris · #4 11-15-09, 09:10 PM

So it would take most folks almost 6 full days of work (45.5 hrs) to remove the exhaust, replace two cylinders, and some adel clamps on the front engine? I would think that even if you had most of the clamps rusted, it wouldn't possibly take that long, but I am looking for opinions so thank you very much for responding.
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edasmus · #5 11-15-09, 09:24 PM

Hi Robert,

Here is another opinion for you to ponder. I can certainly relate to your feelings of wondering if you are getting what you pay for. Certainly owning and operating a Skymaster or any airplane for that matter is going to be a pricey affair. The way I look at it for me personally is this.

I know for certain I am not even close to being qualified to maintain my airplane though I do get my hands greasy at every annual. I wish I were. What that leaves me with is my gut feeling on how I feel the shop is treating me. I try very hard to treat my shop guys well. I have frequently taken my lead mechanic and his wife out for dinner and I am doing that again this week. Some of the secondary guys I have given "tips" to on the side knowing full well they are under paid for the important work they do day in and day out. What this has accomplished over the years is always getting very friendly service every time I walk in the shop and year to year the airplane has never left me walking. It really comes down to having a good personal relationship with the guys in the shop. My goal is to inspire them to want to do good by me. I know they do not always get it right the first time and I know for sure they are not perfect but I always feel that they mean well and for the most part they demonstrate competence.

If your gut is telling you the service is not right then I would suggest trying another shop. Just remember though, maintenance is a two way street. You must demonstrate a willingness to maintain the airplane correctly and pony up the $ to do this and in return hopefully the shop will want to do it right and as efficiently as they can because they like you.

The other option, which I wish I had the time for, is get your A&P and IA and do it yourself. I hope this helps because I understand that writing these checks can be painful. The problem is never flying my Skymaster again would be more painful. The day this changes though is the day I deliver it to the salvage yard.

Good Luck

Ed

Mark Campbell · #6 11-16-09, 04:38 AM

I am, and have been an A&P for over 25 years, also an IA for over 10, I think this is right in line.
All the best!

Mark

skymstr02 · #7 11-16-09, 08:18 AM

I have to agree with Mark, the hours seem to be in line, considering the scope of the work accomplished. The number 3 cylinder is in the center, so all of the intercylinder baffling on that side must be removed to gain access to the cylinder. It does take some time to remove the exhaust clamps if the bolts are rusted, in order to prevent damage to the clamps themselves.

rmorris · #8 11-16-09, 08:46 AM

First, thanks again for those that commented thus far.

I agree with the whole trust thing. But here's the deal, I trust the owner a ton since he has worked on my plane out of a trailer for the past year and half. He bought this new new hangar (with some buiness partners) and also got a few mechanics in the deal. When I took the plane to him (after calling to schedule the annual) I thought HE was doing the work as usual. Turns out that he now wants to sit behind a desk as Direcctor of Maint and has these other guys doing the work. I don't doubt for a minute that they do quality work. I do however doubt that it would take me 17 hrs to remove & re-install the exhaust by myself. As a little background, I did many things in the Navy and one of them was the rating of Engineman - which among other things tears down and reapirs huge diesel engines on ships. So I think I can look at a mechanical job and at least have an informed opinion. Again - 17 hrs was the charge for the exchaust itself. 3 hrs to remove and replace 10 adel clamps all easily accessible on the front engine.

Also, when removing the exhaust, I told them we would put on all new hardwaqre and clamps, and the exhaust itself was deliberately being removed to send off for overhaul by Dawley - so not a lot of 'saving' had to be done during its removal. Now that the exhaust was removed, the cylinders should've been pretty darn accessible.

Happy to continue to hear opinions, even if they don't agree with mine. Just trying to see where I'm wrong with my line of thinking.
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tropical · #9 11-16-09, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorris

I agree with the whole trust thing. But here's the deal, I trust the owner a ton since he has worked on my plane out of a trailer for the past year and half. He bought this new new hangar (with some buiness partners) and also got a few mechanics in the deal. When I took the plane to him (after calling to schedule the annual) I thought HE was doing the work as usual. Turns out that he now wants to sit behind a desk as Direcctor of Maint and has these other guys doing the work.

This appears that you really don't trust the owner of the shop. If this is the case take your plane elsewhere for the next repair.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorris

I do however doubt that it would take me 17 hrs to remove & re-install the exhaust by myself. As a little background, I did many things in the Navy and one of them was the rating of Engineman - which among other things tears down and reapirs huge diesel engines on ships. So I think I can look at a mechanical job and at least have an informed opinion. Again - 17 hrs was the charge for the exchaust itself. 3 hrs to remove and replace 10 adel clamps all easily accessible on the front engine.

Find a mechanic that will let you do the work and sign it off for you. It will be then that you will see what's really involved here. There is a huge difference between working on a diesel ship engine and an airplane.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorris

Also, when removing the exhaust, I told them we would put on all new hardwaqre and clamps, and the exhaust itself was deliberately being removed to send off for overhaul by Dawley - so not a lot of 'saving' had to be done during its removal. Now that the exhaust was removed, the cylinders should've been pretty darn accessible.

There is alot to do to remove the exhaust, especially on the turbo model. Had the mechanic just beat up everything to get the exhaust off the engine how would you feel?

Bottom line, take your plane elsewhere or do the maintenance yourself.

JeffAxel · #10 11-16-09, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rmorris

First, thanks again for those that commented thus far.

I agree with the whole trust thing. But here's the deal, I trust the owner a ton since he has worked on my plane out of a trailer for the past year and half. He bought this new new hangar (with some buiness partners) and also got a few mechanics in the deal. When I took the plane to him (after calling to schedule the annual) I thought HE was doing the work as usual. Turns out that he now wants to sit behind a desk as Direcctor of Maint and has these other guys doing the work. I don't doubt for a minute that they do quality work. I do however doubt that it would take me 17 hrs to remove & re-install the exhaust by myself. As a little background, I did many things in the Navy and one of them was the rating of Engineman - which among other things tears down and reapirs huge diesel engines on ships. So I think I can look at a mechanical job and at least have an informed opinion. Again - 17 hrs was the charge for the exchaust itself. 3 hrs to remove and replace 10 adel clamps all easily accessible on the front engine.

Also, when removing the exhaust, I told them we would put on all new hardwaqre and clamps, and the exhaust itself was deliberately being removed to send off for overhaul by Dawley - so not a lot of 'saving' had to be done during its removal. Now that the exhaust was removed, the cylinders should've been pretty darn accessible.

Happy to continue to hear opinions, even if they don't agree with mine. Just trying to see where I'm wrong with my line of thinking.

FWIW, I had the same thing done to my plane 2 years ago and was charged for 16hr to R&R the front exhaust.

Skymaster337B · #11 11-16-09, 08:46 PM

Here's a suggestion that might save you half the billable hours...remove everything yourself. There's nothing in the FARs that prevent an aircraft owner from removing parts off his own aircraft. But you will need an A&P to return the aircraft to service...that doesn't mean the A&P has to put everything back-together-again either but is at the discretion of the A&P signing off the work. "Owner assisted" are the only type of annuals I'll do...because I don't want to get my hands dirty, haha. But really it all comes down to time and the fact that I make good money doing other things. It doesn't take an IA to remove nuts and bolts.