In-Flight Fire – Maybe in the Rear Engine You Can’t See

[jchronic]

Guy -

In my case, it would be keep the olive drab side up; the airplane in warbird paint is mine.Bought it last fall to do some marine survey work here on Cape Cod. Two owners ago had it dolled up like a replica O2 and the guy I bought it from (retired USMC COL) kept it that way. A 'normal' repaint is on the agenda this year. (Per my questions on another thread)

For everybody - back to the fire in flight/smoke in the cabin theme - something else to think about while you're getting the airplane safely on the ground ASAP is taking some smoke evacuation action: Maybe opening the pilot vent window, having a right-seater crack the entry door, a passenger crack the baggage door, etc. You pressurized guys might want to dump the cabin and get some air flowing through when able. Each situation likely to be a little different.........

Joe

[jhickam]

Two weeks ago on a bfr flight my rear engine began running rough and the egt began to climb at a rate of 25 degrees per second. We were close to the airport so I powered back the rear engine to lower the egt temp and proceeded to land without incident. Once on the ground we did a runup and the rear engine was running very rough and still the egt temps would increase at 1800 rpm.

This flight could have had a very different outcome based on what the shop found to be the problem. It was a fuel injection line broke completly off at the injector spraying fuel in the engine compartment. We were very lucky this time.

My question is would one broken line reduce fuel flow to the other cylinders creating a lean mixture causing the egt to increase?

Any other ideas what might make the egt increase?

[hharney]

The flow was diverted to one cylinder by lack of resistance, to the broken line. Therefore the flow to each cylinder was greatly reduced. Hence the high EGT readings. Glad to hear you made down safely.

[Ernie Martin]

Aero-News.net is reporting that a restored B-17 has gone down in a cornfield near Chicago. In-flight fire shortly after takeoff. All seven people on board the aircraft survived, but the rare warbird was lost due to a post-crash fire.

No info yet on what caused the fire, but the wiring on older aircraft is prone to problems that can lead to a fire.

If you haven't already, please read the early messages on this thread, so that you may be prepared if the unthinkable happens.

Ernie

[Skymaster337B]

I don't think the old B-17s should be out flying around...those planes are of national historic significance. However, I've been saying for years that they should start building 2011 model B-17s. We won WWII faster than this war on terrorism using B-17s versus smart bombs. Don't get me wrong, we should use the latest technology in these new B-17s: glass cockpits, turbo-prop engines, GPS and INS navigation....but no smart bombs. Build 20,000 new B-17s and start the carpet bombing of the middle east and lets give them what the nazis got. Am I wrong?

[jchronic]

Re "Am I wrong?"

Yes. And noting your comment relative to Mr. Obama in another thread, I for one would appreciate you not trying to drag your politics onto this forum. I believe this site is about Skymasters and related aviation subjects, not political rants.

Thank you -

[edasmus]

I watched the B17 Liberty Bell depart runway 9 this morning at the Aurora Airport as I was pulling my Skymaster from my hanger preparing for a flight. Right behind the bomber on takeoff was a yellow T-6 (I'm fairly certain it was a T-6) chase plane. All looked well at that point. About 10-15 minutes later my friend and I departed in my Skymaster and turned southeast toward the JOT VOR and immediately could see the black smoke plume 5 to 6 miles southeast of the Aurora airport. We flew by the burning B17 about 3000 feet above it with the chase plane orbiting the landing sight. From our vantage point we could tell the crew had clearly made a successful controlled landing into the wind on the chosen field. Whatever was going wrong, was going wrong quickly. They must have had precious little time to get the airplane down safely. Very sad but kudos to the flight crew for their skill and judgement for getting everyone down and out quickly and safely.

Ed

[Ernie Martin]

Let me direct you to our home page at www.337skymaster.com. There, on the blue column at the left, you will find this statement: "Anyone can participate in the website, without cost. Two rules: polite behavior & Skymaster-only topics." Please let's abide by those rules.

Back on topic, a Goodyear blimp caught fire in-flight today, killing the pilot. My point: yes, it's unlikely, but it happens. Be ready.

Ernie

[WebMaster]

Originally Posted by Skymaster337B

I don't think the old B-17s should be out flying around...those planes are of national historic significance. However, I've been saying for years that they should start building 2011 model B-17s. We won WWII faster than this war on terrorism using B-17s versus smart bombs. Don't get me wrong, we should use the latest technology in these new B-17s: glass cockpits, turbo-prop engines, GPS and INS navigation....but no smart bombs. Build 20,000 new B-17s and start the carpet bombing of the middle east and lets give them what the nazis got. Am I wrong?

Well, look at the F-35
The contract for that was let in 1996, and again in 2000. It still isn't in service. By comparison, it took the good folks at North American less than 180 days to go from contract to first flight of the P-51.
The problem is all that glass cockpit stuff, and smart bombs.
Turbo Props are expensive to build and maintain, that's why we don't have them on Skymasters.
The B-17 was popular, but the better aircraft was the B-24. Often compared with the better-known B-17 Flying Fortress, the B-24 was a more modern design with a higher top speed, greater range, and a heavier bomb load. My favorite, is the A-26. Piston engines would do just fine, and less expensive to produce, not requiring expensive materials from China.
That's why we don't want Turbo Props on Skymasters. Give us the Aluminum and Steel. We'll do just fine.

[K337A]

It was amazing that Ford could build a B24 every 59.34 minutes when Willow Run was running at capacity. The Axis powers didn't stand a chance once the industry of the United States geared up for war. Costs went from $300,000 to $137,000. If any industry in the USA achieved that goal today the saving and efficiency would be taxed to make up the difference.

http://www.wondersofwwii.com/willow-run.html

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money [to spend]."- Margret Thatcher


.

[Ernie Martin]

Forgive me for hammering on this subject, but for those of you who have not yet acted on this, Aero-News Network is reporting an SR22 Cirrus down with two fatalities, with a local paper saying that the airplane caught fire shortly after takeoff.

Ernie

[Walter Atkinson]

Ernie:

Are you aware that if a SkyMaster that has an exhaust crack develop had an engine monitor that event would have been seen almost immediately by a pilot educated in interpreting the engine monitor data? This would allow immediate action by the pilot to mitigate the danger.

For educational purposes, would anyone care to describe what would be seen on an engine monitor in which the exhaust riser on the #2 cylinder developed a crack? IOW, how would you know you had an exhaust crack by looking at the engine monitor display?

This is a serious reason to have an engine monitor. It can save your life.

[Ernie Martin]

I agree: an engine monitor would provide near-instant information of an exhaust leak in a riser. As to how it would read, I need to think about it. There would be less resistance (freer flow) of the exhaust on that cylinder, but I can't instantly determine how that would affect CHT. On EGT for that cylinder, my initial (read: possibly wrong) reaction is that it would be cooler if the monitor probe is downstream of the leak (because the probe sees less gas) but I would not venture a guess if the probe is upstream of the leak*.

Ernie


_________________
* I have an MS in Mechanical Engineering from Caltech but my combustion skills have atrophied from 20 years working on satellite communications and 20 years running or consulting for high-tech companies.

[Walter Atkinson]

Originally Posted by Ernie Martin

I agree: an engine monitor would provide near-instant information of an exhaust leak in a riser. As to how it would read, I need to think about it. There would be less resistance (freer flow) of the exhaust on that cylinder, but I can't instantly determine how that would affect CHT. On EGT for that cylinder, my initial (read: possibly wrong) reaction is that it would be cooler if the monitor probe is downstream of the leak (because the probe sees less gas) but I would not venture a guess if the probe is upstream of the leak*.

Ernie:

Kuddos. You have the right answer--the EGT will drop. The "why" does not come from the probe seeing "less gas." The drop is seen whether the probe is upstream or downstream of the crack. The closer to the crack, the greater the change that's seen.
The reason is the Boyle's PV = nRT. The gas leaving the cylinder is actually the same temp but the pressure in the exhaust drops due to the escaping gases, so the temp is lower as well ( P and T are on opposite sides of the equation, right? ).

As for the CHT change, there is usually no measurable change in the combustion event, so the CHT should not change -- UNLESS the leaking gas is blowing onto the cylinder head metal, then the CHT may be rising a LOT. The good news with a rising CHT is that the escaping gas is hopefully not squirting onto a fuel line!

This is really good stuff to know... it can save your bacon.

This is only one of the reasons I consider an engine monitor to be mandatory equipment.

There are so many ignition issues that can be discovered long before they would cause one to abort a flight from a faulty a run-up.

[Don Nieser]

I have some complete 0-2 rear engine compartment fire detector systems.
Don Nieser
Commodore Aerospace Corp
405-503-4686
nieser.02.337parts@juno.com
www.02337parts.com