Have you ever had an REAL engine failure

[Rickskymaster]

I have been dong a lot of simulated engine failures lately.
But have not actually come to "Feather" the operating engine as of yet.
This got be thinking, has anyone had a REAL engine failure and was it on take off and/or enroute.
Also, I am still thinking about the proper time to retract the gear?
If an engine failure was to occur after the gear was retracted, what is the best procedure?
I look forward to everyone's opinion as it helps a new Skymaster owner think thru the issues.
Thanks
N48AT

[hharney]

I WAS FLYING AT 3000 FT AGL
ENROUTE ON A 1 HOUR FLIGHT
VFR WHEN A CYLINDER ON THE FRONT ENGINE CAME LOOSE FROM THE BLOCK
MAKES A LOT OF NOISE SO I QUICKLY DETERMINED IT WAS THE FRONT ENGINE
I WAS VERY FAMILIAR WITH THE AREA AND KNEW THERE WAS AN AIRPORT JUST 10 MILES AWAY
IN IDAHO THAT'S PRETTY RARE BUT I HAPPEN TO BE IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME
I QUICKLY LOWERED THE GEAR AS I FEATHERED THE PROP AND SHUT DOWN THE FRONT ENGINE
AS I TOOK A DEEP BREATH AND CAUGHT UP WITH MY HEART RATE I RELIZED WITH THE LIGHT LOAD THAT I HAD THE AIRPLANE FLEW VERY NICELY ON THE REAR ENGINE
I ACCTUALLY DEBATED IF I SHOULD LAND AT THE AIRPORT 10 MILES AWAY OR PROCEED ON TO MY DESTINATION 40 MILES AHEAD
AFTER THINKING ABOUT THAT FOR ABOUT A HALF A SECOND I LANDED AT THE AIRPORT THAT WAS 10 MILES AWAY AND KISSED THE GROUND
THE AIRPLANE HANDLED JUST FINE

NO DAMAGE TO THE AIRPLANE OR THE ENGINE
A NEW JUG AND I FLEW IT BACK HOME A WEEK LATER

WITH AN ENGINE FAILURE AND THE GEAR RETRACTED THE BEST SOULUTION IS TO REMAIN CALM, THINK OUT YOUR PROCEEDURES, AND FLY THE AIRPLANE TO THE CLOSEST AVAILABLE RUNWAY

[kevin]

I had a partial power loss (about half) during cruise due to a turbocharger that self-destructed. It was a non-event.

I have never had a mechanically induced engine failure on takeoff. But. During my initial multi training (in a 337), I was making a normal approach to our home airport. At about 100', he screamed "go around go around go around". I firewalled both throttles, and at that moment, he pulled the mixture on the rear engine. I froze for a moment in shock, since I had had multi-engine drills in RTC's simulator, but during this phase of my initial training, he had never pulled an engine on me. The airspeed was bleeding off, and the airplane began to sink. He looked at me and said "well, what are you going to do?". I woke up, and ran the drill: power up, clean up the flaps, identify, verify, feather. After I got the rear engine feathered, I regained blue line and began to climb agonizingly slowly, maybe 200 fpm. When I was sure I could stand the temporary sink, I raised the gear, and climbed for a while. I also had to do a 90 degree turn toward lower terrain. I climbed to pattern altitude, and we returned to the pattern, and I did a single engine approach, with the instructor talking me throgh the entire process.

When we finished, he told me he would never do that again, but that he felt every student should experience something close to the real thing once in their life, and that the best time to do it was when I was least expecting it. And he kept his word, he never pulled the mixture again.

Many will argue that it was unsafe of him to do that, and you are probably right. But it *was* very worthwhile to see exactly how crappy that airplane would perform on one engine, at sea level, on a 70 degree day. (Still far better than any other twin in or near its class. I did a simulated engine failure in a normally aspirated 310 at 3000' on a hot day and could not maintain altitude, let alone climb, and neither could the instructor.) It was worthwhile to see what the airplane was like before, during and after feathering. There was a significant increase in risk on that flight as well.

250 fpm is like a C150 on a hot day I guess. But it sure seemed slow. It took a lot of space to get back to pattern altitude.

End of war story. You asked...;-)

Kevin

[Eustacio-Chachi]

After a 50 hours inspection me and my wife where going on a two hours flight and we had full tanks (120 gal), on take off I heard on the radio somebody say "the airplane that just took off has one engine smoking" Ok, I said that´s me, but since the airplane has just come out of an inspection in which they had changed oil and filters I thoght it could be some residual oil, anyway from that moment my eyes where on the engine instruments. At about 300 feet agl the oil pressure on the front engine startet to drop so I feathered the propeller and shut the engine down, flew around the pattern and landed. The mechanic that has changed the oil and filter did not put the gasked on the filter of the front engine. The airplane flew like any single engine with two people and full of fuel, no damage to the engine but an oil shower to the airplane. Chachi

[WebMaster]

I was making a short trip, abt 50 miles, to another airport. Took off with full tanks and 3 people. When I started my descent, I realized that the throttle cable to the rear engine had some how frozen, and could not throttle back. I pulled back the front engine, and climbed to slow down, dropped the gear, then pulled mixture, and feather, and did a normal pattern to land. It was a non event.
Now, in the Beech Travel Air I got my ME rating in, a single engine landing was a HUGE event. A friend owns a Seneca, and out of annual, went up with his Mechanic. Had smoke from an engine right after take off, went around and landed, singel engine, but had to get a tow from the taxiway, since he had no directional control on the ground.

[Jerry De Santis]

With my 1972 337F I had several engine out events. One at 10,000 feet over George. I was not able to hold 10,000 feet but circled above an airport down to 8,000 feet and was able to hold that alt. until I trouble shot down engine and did a restart. Mixture problem. Non event. I also with the same plane lost front engine on take off out of Mackinac Island, Michigan (MCD) 3500 ft runway. Four people on board and about 85 gallons fuel. Lost engine just before rotation. I was able to abort take off with plenty of runway to spare. Also non event. Same plane shooting an ILS into Appleton. Wisc. in heavy wet snow, like Larry, front engine throttle became packed with ice/snow and was not able to reduce power. I did the approach with back engine at much reduced power and when I was about to land, I shut the mixture off on front engine so engine would stall. It turned out well and to be a non event, but at the time, it seemed to be a major event.

With my P337G first flight out of ann. a few months back, like Chachi's experience, blew new gasket on front engine oil filter adpt. and lost all oil pressure on that engine. I was able to shut engine down quickly with no damage to engine and did a 180 degree turn back to BTL about 25 miles. Non event again, but your mind does work overtime and play tricks like---GEE WHAT IF I LOSS THE OTHER ENGINE!!! You sure don't want to take that chance and fly far on only one engine. Find an airport close by and land. You will find if you practice engine out events often as I do, they become non events when it really happens.

Jerry
N34EC

[Ernie Martin]

Taking off from a Bahamian out-island in my old 1969 337D, with 100 gal. fuel and 3 adults + luggage, the rear engine started a HUGE racket at 500 ft. (later determined to be a busted rocker arm stud, so one valve wasn't opening). Feathered rear engine, had no trouble climbing slowly to 1000 ft pattern altitude and circled around to land. Non event but glad I was on a Skymaster.

Ernie

[rick bell]

seems to be a common prblem with the rear engine, had a rear rocker are stud also go south @10k enroute from kingman az. to prescott az. 1/2 fuel and only two asboard. shut the back down and coasted into kprc with no problems.

[Jim Rainer]

Yes, front engine feathered itself on CAVU day by myself with about 120 gls fuel in 1976 337G, normally aspirated. After I settled down, I decided to continue to my destination - my home field where my mechanic was. Flat Mississippi Delta under me and about a 45 minute flight after I lost about 20 knots in speed.

A gasket blew in the prop governor causing the prop to feather. Most props fail to low pitch (high RPM) when they fail but the IO360 fails to the feather position. Replaced the govenor with another one and didn't lose a thing - all in warranty - the goveror that failed had about 25 hours on it.

I don't know if I would call it a non-event because it raises one's adrenalin level considerably and I kept my eye on a strip within gliding range all the way back!

That's 4th engine failure in 46 years, 5000 hrs; three of them the same IO-360 engine (2 in 337's and one in a Seneca.)

[Keven]

Jim:

I never knew that the prop governors on IO360's fail to full feathered position. I had never heard that before.

Can anyone shed light on the reverse safety engineering for these prop governors?

KevEn
________
ATIVAN REHAB FORUMS (http://www.rehab-forum.com/ativan-rehab/)

[jhickam]

I had the rear govener fail and go to feather just as I was roatating at LWS about two years ago. It was a non event, just shut down and brake to a stop. In the days before before it failed I seemed to notice it was drifting about 25 rpm each way in cruise.

[Francisco]

Practicing for my center line trust rating the instructor pulled the mixure on the rear engine I was sweting adrenalin when after we fethered it we could not get the aux fuel pump to work so we could not start it we were at 4000 feet and were holding if not climing at about 170 fpm we piddle for about 15 minutes (an eternity) with the primer no luck finally I said lets fly to Stennis field and landed with the front engine just like a 172 in the grown we got it reestarted and replaced the aux fuel pump.

nerve racking but what agreate feeling to know that you can still make it home to sleep at night.


P: I wonder how the single engine versus tween engine airplanes statistics would shift if every tween engine pilot reported
the lifes saved by arriving safely to the nearest airport.

that is another topic

care to talk about it

[Guy Paris]

several years ago at altitude we shut the front engine down and feathered it... When we tried to move the prop control forward it would not move. After landing and some investigating, we could see where the rod comes thru the baffling, it had got hung up. The bracket that supported the baffling at the center of it had broken and allowed the baffle to shift and prevented the rod from moving forward.... Yes, had (4) turbines fail over the years, (2) catastrofic, a roll back and a fuel pump shaft failure.... Guy, old72driver....

5000 feet above the San Fernando Valley in California the crankshaft in my rear engine broke. I was unable to feather the rear prop. I made a single engine approach to Burbank airport. Came over the fence a little hot (nervous), but was glad there was over 8000 ft of runway in front of me.

At engine autopsy it was clear that the crank had failed eventhough it had been tested according to Contin. specs at overhaul. Mine was only one of two crank failures in normally aspirated IO-360's.

[Wim van Genk]

I should suggest with a 337:
After take off - Flaps up
wait until 400ft above ground and then
Gear up
If engine fails blue line!
This procedure seemes very good
Because the gear doors give so much drag!
From 400 ft ground you can still climb at +/- 200ft/min to 600ft or higher whats often enough to go back for landing!

Never panick!

[Richard]

Interesting that this is a common theme. I lost the front engine 10k ft. Sheared the rocker studs on two cylinders. Had 109 hours on a factory reman. Scared me senseless. Nearest airport was 28 miles away. I didn't really panic until I saw all the emergancy equiptment coming twards the airport.

Had automotive fuel put in my plane.... The rear engine didn't like it. Couldn't keep it running at altitude. Vapor locking I'm guessing.

[SkyKing]

Why would you EVER put automotive fuel in a Skymaster? Does not the manufacturer of both the engine and the airplane give adequate notice in the POH under "LIMITATIONS", or has the trend to not read reached epedimic proportions?

Both the POH and TCM Operator's Manual clearly articulate the "minimum grade aviation fuel for this engine is 100LL or 100. In case the grade required is not available, use a HIGHER rating. NEVER USE A LOWER RATED FUEL."

Gee, why not just put turbine fuel in it....DUH!

SkyKing

[Richard]

We are still investigating it. Apparently the FBO was trying to make a little more money that weekend.

[SkyKing]

Excuse me, but if you're alleging the FBO "wanted to make a litle more money that weekend," why would they fill your airplane with auto-gas —which is a whole lot cheaper than AvGas? How does that make them more money? Your story seems to have a few holes in it. And you own a Skymaster?

SkyKing

[Jim Rainer]

Simple. Mix autogas with avgas and sell it for the price of avgas.

[SkyKing]

Well, if that's indeed the case, then you have the basis for both FEDERAL and STATE CRIMES being committed and a tort claim for damages to boot! Any FBO that would commit that kind of act has certainly stuck it out to get it whacked off big time, and I just don't see that happening unless they're completely stupid. But, given the current landscape of the seemingly engrained 'Enron' type corporate greed and theft, no matter the domestic laws, time for a complaint to the U.S. Attorney's Office and the local County Prostitutor AND a Lawsuit! GO GET 'EM!

SkyKing

[Jerry De Santis]

Richard, If what I am reading is true, Skyking has a real point here! If you are going to stand behind that issue, post the FBO's name and location so the rest of us don't experience the same thing.

Jerry

[SkyKing]

WHO SOLD THE BAD GAS, Richard? We all need to know in order that someone else doesn't fall prey to this scam! At stake is someone's Life, Limb and Property... this is not a time to be hesitant.

And Richard, I might owe you a small apology... from reading your initial post on the autogas in your Skymaster, it DID appear from your usage of the King's English that YOU were the one that compelled your plane to ingest autogas. But since you later said you were 'investigating' the matter, that points to a CRIME, and we all need to be watchful for this kind of crap being pulled by some unscrupulous fixed base operator.

Let's have a name and location, at least, where you bought the fuel that you believe you had a problem with.

As the saying goes, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!"

SkyKing

[Richard]

I can tell you what the signs are for auto mixed in with the av fuel. In one day 12 planes started leaking fuel. Apparently auto fuel eats up alot of the fuel system components. This happened about 8 months ago. One of the plane owners is an attorney. He's got the suit started. I don't think it is my best interest to mention who the FBO was at this time.

Also, when auto is mixed with AV fuel, it has a citrus smell from the exhaust.

Interesting though, the front ran fine. The rear would vapor lock at 9k and above, or 23" mp and higher.

[Kevin McDole]

Richard,

Let me try asking the question another way ...

Without accusing anyone of anything or implying fault or blame, can you tell us the name of the FBO that lawyer is suing?

[kevin]

Guys,

Let's let this dog lie. Posting the name of the FBO could very well get me mail from attorneys that I don't want, and I appreciate Richard not posting it.

If you want to communicate with Richard privately about this, I think that would be best.

Remember, I operate this site at no charge to anyone, and I don't need hassles from it.

Thank you.

Kevin
webmaster@337skymaster.com

[Jim Rainer]

You are absolutely right, Kevin!

[SkyKing]

Kevin,

While it's your website, I believe your FEAR is wholly unfounded.

Why is it so easy to sell out to 'FEAR' when an important issue such as this comes up? For Heaven sake, knowing 'WHO' the alleged or suspect FBO is could very well SAVE someone's LIFE, LIMB or PROPERTY! Isn't this MORE important than the fear of receiving mail from attorney's? So what if you receive mail from an attorney? You're only doing a public service!

I've asked the question and Kevin McDole has asked the question... and we ALL need an answer. After all, court records are VERY much a PUBLIC RECORD, and we are all inquiring minds of the 'public' and we have every right to know.

Personally, I don't think it's fair to withhold important public safety information on account of the 'FEAR FACTOR'.

SkyKing

[FRED-E]

I agree with you Kevin, if you must know, use the E-Mail
Fred N358

[SkyKing]

OK GANG, it's time to THINK, THINK, THINK! Personally, I think we ALL need to take our 'Rose Colored Glasses' OFF our face and take a REAL CLOSE look at this queer deal that Richard alleges, i.e., that some 'crooked' FBO put autogas mixed with AvGas into his Skymaster. Now, do you all really buy into that? I DON'T, and here's why: First of all, the FBO is insured to the SKY(smith) and must meet all sorts of Federal and State permitting ---just to HAVE an AvGas facility. You mean to tell me, Richard, that your little old FBO just decided they needed to 'make more money', so they started pouring autogas into their B-I-G tank, mixing it in with their supply of BRANDED AvGas, obviously supplied by one of the Big Three, Chervon, AirBP, or AvFuel ? NOT IN A MILLION YEARS, MY FRIENDS! Someone is smoking us BIG TIME. What FBO can YOU personally think of that would CHANCE putting autogas in their aviation storage tanks and take the EXPOSURE of going directly to jail for a wrongful death suit, huh? The FAA gets really pissie about people playing games with fuel... so Richard, I think it's time you come out of the closet and come clean... tell us the Truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the Truth, so help you God!

LISTEN UP! I think what really happened here is that ol' Richard put the autogas in his Skymaster ALL BY HIMSELF, and now he's crying 'FIRE'. Hey, it ain't gonna happen. Can you imagine the LIABILITY of the AvGas supplier and the fricking lawsuits that would emerge if, in fact, we were to 'buy-in' to Richard's ALLEGED 'storyline'? Time for a reality check folks... this ain't no time to be joking around with fairytales.

SKYKING

[Richard]

Sticks and stones........

[Randal]

Message removed.

This message was a reposting of a message written by Gmas that was posted to the Skymaster Yahoo group. Gmas has written to me and asked that it be removed. Since he is the author of the message, I am removing it. You may view messages on the Yahoo board by following the link below, and joining the group.

Kevin

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/skymaster/

[Richard]

Oh please. Everyone stand back, the ego is about to blow! I don't care to be acknowledged. That's just plain silly. Well, I may not know as much as some or most of you, but I do know what auto fuel in a skymaster will do. No, I didn't do it myself. I made it back to the field just fine. Just had to run the boost pumps to keep the engines from vapor locking. Sounds like someone else wants to be noticed more than me.