Prospective Buyer Questions

[kilr4d]

Originally Posted by 6498w

Here are my questions:

1.The anti-337 crowd bashes the horrible maintenance costs and downtime of the plane, and the owners seem to generally report just the opposite.
Very common. People love to hate the Skymaster.

With the understanding that most of my maintenance would require a trip to the mainland (about a 30 minute flight to several airports and a lot more IA's), do you think a 337 is a reasonable choice - or would you be concerned and get something a bit more common, like a Seneca so the local IA's can work on it. I recognize there is wild variability based on each planes condition/history, so I'm really asking for your personal experience and knowledge. I understand I could end up with a lemon (and yes, I will be calling on an expert to do a very thorough pre-buy) and my reliability might be worse than average. Maybe even a more specific question - assuming I purchase a 337 in reasonably good condition with reasonable times, fly it conscientiously, and partake in preventative maintenance and don't defer items in annuals, how many "surprise" visits to the shop would you expect in an average year?
It's not so much a yes/no answer. Any airplane is expensive these days but YOU MUST remember that the fleet is getting OLD. Textron and Piper don't want the old birds around. Every year they will keep increasing the parts prices.

As far as your question about dispatch reliability? There's no answer. You're dealing with a 40 - 60 year old airframe...anything can get worn out.

2. Are the 5th/6th seats reasonably comfortable for "petite" adult women, or are they really just for very small children? My wife and daughter are in the 5'5" range and weigh around 120lbs. and they would probably be relegated to the aft (chivalry is dead!), since the rest of us are in the 6 foot range. How is C.G. with passengers in those seats? Finally, can 6th seats be added to 4 seat models, or do I have to make sure to buy one that already has 6 seats?

It's fairly tight back there.

3. This is the questions that always draws the "if you have to ask, you can't afford it" comment, but I have to ask! I can afford it. I know there's no way of justifying cost of ownership, but would like to get an idea of just how unjustifiable owning a 337 is! I am thinking of budgeting 25-30k all-in per year for 70 hours of flying time based on my research. I understand and can shoulder the occasional and awful "surprise" overhaul etc. Just to give you an idea of my local costs - fuel $4/per gallon with EAA discount. Tie down -$150/mo. Insurance looks like it will be around $3500 for a hull value of 75k since I don't have any ME time. With that in mind, and from your experience, is my estimate of 25-30k high, low, or pretty close?

40 - 60 year old wiring/plumbing/hydraulics. Complex retractable gear. 4 mags. 12 cylinders. 24 plugs and wires. 2 constant speed props. Lots of rigging. Horribly expensive cowl flap motors and power packs, etc.

This isn't a stab at Skymasters...it's just commentary on the entire legacy general aviation fleet. You have to be hands on with maintenance and you MUST have a patient mechanic that's willing to work with you.

As I said before, the fleet is getting older and companies like Cessna don't want any light planes flying except 182's and 172's flying.

It's still fairly cheap to fly an older Cherokee/Arrow/172, etc but I have to warn you that there's never really been a cheap to own twin. You've gotta go into this with you eyes wide open.

Also, every airplane owner in the history of airplanes has had a rough first year. Doesn't matter how diligent your prebuy is...year one is hard on the wallet.

My comments above in red. Not trying to be alarming but everyone underestimates the cost delta of owning a fixed gear/fixed pitch single vs a high performance retractable twin.

As Ed mentioned above, Skymasters don't like to live outside. They leak like a sieve and older Cessnas are susceptible to corrosion.

Also keep in mind that I've not mentioned turbos, deice, pressurization, etc. That brings another whole set of maintenance requirements into play.

They're GREAT planes. I absolutely love my Skymaster but I fully understand the potential expense.

Your mileage may vary; good luck with your search.

[edasmus]

Nice post John, well said! 👍

[B2C2]

I think its safe to say that the people on this site are fans of the airplane. I love mine. I have flown it across the country twice from Coast to coast. I love having the twin over the mountains and great lakes. I also fly every year down to Loreto on Baja California, again love having two engines over some very desolate country. I have a turbo and have GAMIs and fine wire plugs and it runs LOP very nicely. I burn about 19 GPH at 30 inches and 2400 RPM. At 19K feet it flys 175 KTAS. I love it over the mountains. My annuals run from a low of about 7K up to the highest was 14K. My mechanic budgets a week of time and charges 4K just for the inspection, so 3K to 10k for needed work. I have found that if you are ok staying involved in parts sourcing, very few parts actually come from Cessna. most can be found from third parties at sometimes significantly lower prices. My mechanic is comfortable working on it and encourages me to get the parts as its time for him that he doesn't want to spend. He works on several Skymasters here in Livermore. Its very tight in the engine spaces. Best advice is find a small boned mechanic. Every so often I look around at other planes and always come back to this one. The only thing Id consider as a change out would be a P model but I have mine set up really nicely with Aspen, IFD540, and Stec 60-2 autopilot. Its an amazing IFR platform.

[6498w]

Hi John,

I really appreciate you taking the time to address all of my questions - many thanks!

What I am really trying to do regarding the maintenance question is reduce the wide ambiguity by getting some real owner experience. I'm fully onboard with "past performance does not guarantee future investment" disclaimer, but online accounts from supporters are that the airplane requires "no more maintenance than any other light twin" vs the bashers that state "it will quickly drive you into the poor house". I am attempting to go in with eyes wide open, as you say, and so any and all direct experience and real numbers from those operating these aircraft seems the most accurate way of determining the cost:fun ratio.

Edasmus' summary of total annual costs was very enlightening, and roughly where I expected the mean cost to fall (somewhere in the 25-30k range for 70 hours per year, averaged over the course of say, 5 years). Are his averages relatively consistent with your experience? Again, I recognize there are outliers, lemons, etc that completely skew the calculations. I'd love to know your gut-level, "gun to your head" answer to the question, "how much do you spend in an average year on your Skymaster". Is it 30k for 100 hours? 50k? 20k?

I'm in a financial position to easily absorb any of those numbers, however there's a tipping point where a few years of 50k per year would definitely have me thinking I might have more fun using that money somewhere else!

Again, I sincerely appreciate all of you taking the time to respond to all my questions.

[n86121]

CARGO DOOR
I've had my '69 T337D for over 25 years (during which time I've not aged a day). I like having the cargo door in back, both to load and unload 'stuff,' and as alternative means of escape if needed.

SEAT ARRANGMENTS
I bought the airplane from a fellow had a family of five. He kept two front seats, the far-side one in the 2nd row, and the two rear seats. Easy to get to all five seats. Quite comfortable, but you sit on luggage. I have had grown adults fall asleep in the back row because it was so comfortable.

I keep my front two rows in, and use back for luggage.

WATER IN TANKS - HOW TO PREVENT
Having learned the hard way (front engine quit 200 ft in air after takeoff, due to water contamination!), I keep some 12 inch pipe cleaners in the airplane tool kit under the passenger seat. Whenever I fuel I intentionally drool a bit into the fill area around the cap to make sure the though-wing drains are clear. If not, out comes a pipe cleaner.

The tanks will not leak water IF the drains are kept clear.

My guess is a lot of people don't even know there are drains there. They are not marked, nor obvious. Just tiny 1/8 in or so holes in the well. If water allowed to 'fill' the bathtub around the caps, it CAN drool into the tanks.