GPSS options with 400A

[cessnadriver]

Herb.
Thanks for sending me the thread. I checked the autopilot I have and found I have both types shown in the pictures. The one that was installed in my C337 is FIG 2-1 but the other system I have is FIG 3-1. I contacted Autopilot Central (Tulsa)and Mayday (Michigan) they both say that getting those OLD navomatic (straight) 400 can be difficult to fix and or find the parts. It seams that my 400 requires a DG and a AI. The AI I have is the old type pictured. I was hoping to get a more modern AI that shows more details and color coded (blue/brown). Autopilot Central is quoting about $10,000 to get my system working/installed with a DAC converter.
The other shop is NOT sure about the overall costs? I have contacted tha Nashville shop yet. But will if the other shops can't help!
regards, BILLS

[cessnadriver]

Herb.
Hello again. I'm looking for 1965 Navomatic autopilot manual. Probably the install manual as I'm trying to determine the DG and AI that are required for the 1965 year 400 Navomatic. I downloaded the manual that you had, but it only shows Chapter 3 and Fig 3-1. My 400 is the one with only one trim light on the control head. If you have Chapter 2 and Fig 2-1 I'd appreciate it.
Thanks.
Regards,
Bill Story bstory@pa.rr.com

[cessnadriver]

TO Herb.
Thank you for the manuals. You won't belief it but I have those on CD. What I don't have is the manual you sent me a while back. I don't know what manual it was but the title was Section 3, with a Fig 3-1. BUT I need the Section two of that manual. That's the pre-1966 model. Any chance you have that one? Also while researching Cessna manuals, I learned that according to the Electronics parts manual the original 1965 C337 lists only the Navomatic 200 and 300. The manual states that the 400 was installed starting with serial number 240+. I think that's a 1966 337A. My 1965 serial number is 200. I've asked one of the avionics shops that I'm working with if I can install the 400. So far no answer. I cannot belief that there are no 1965 C337 with 400's installed. Maybe owners of the 1965 models can let me know if they have a 400 installed???
Again many thanks for your assistance!!
Regards, BILLS

[patrolpilot]

That is a lot of money ($10K) to get the 400 up to speed. The only thing you can do is compare it to the purchase price of a STEC 55 along with the labor to install it against just how bad you want an autopilot.

The avionics shop has not called to bring my airplane yet for the fellow who asked about my installation and the paperwork. I hate bugging the guy as a sole operator; he is always up behind a panel.

I did a very short flight Friday in LIFR to go work with a guy on a High-Performance endorsement. KVCT-KPKV is a short 17nm flight that requires a climb from SL to 3K, a course reversal, and then the LPV approach. The 400A flew it smoothly and to perfection. I attached the 3D View of my track and the approach plate.

[cessnadriver]

TO Patrol pilot.
Thanks for your reply. Yes you are correct, about spending $10K to get my old straight 400 working. But as I stated in an earlier thread, my plane is NOT worth, to me, dumping $30K plus for a new autopilot(S-tek 30). But an investment of LESS THAN $10K would be worth it. I fly long trips in my C337 and at 68 years old the trips are very tiring! With me doing ALL the grunt work I'm hoping to be under $10K? The other reason to invest $10K is I'm currently training for an instrument rating. I just wish, as many other C337 owners, to have one of the New autopilots that single Cessnas and Pipers have as options.
Regards.
Bill Story

[hharney]

Maybe this is the one

[cessnadriver]

TO: Herb.
No sir, that's the one you sent me before. That is for 1968 C337. I take it you don't have section 2?
Thanks for your continued assistance.
Regards.
BILLS

[wslade2]

Per a 1968 Navomatic 400 repair manual:

Computer-Amplifier part number 30520-0014 (14 volt) or 30520-0028 (28 volt)
Control Unit [dial unit on the pedestal] 30510-1114 (14V) or 30510-1128 (28V)
Gyro-Attitude Indicator 30475-0100 (Type G-519A)
Directional Gyro 30370-0100 (Type G 520A)

Above for an "AF-520A".
Herb's pictures for "AF-520 B&C".
Hope this helps some. I see a firm called AQI that sells them and overhauls. Maybe there are others...

[patrolpilot]

Originally Posted by cessnadriver

TO Patrol pilot.
Thanks for your reply. Yes you are correct, about spending $10K to get my old straight 400 working. But as I stated in an earlier thread, my plane is NOT worth, to me, dumping $30K plus for a new autopilot(S-tek 30). But an investment of LESS THAN $10K would be worth it. I fly long trips in my C337 and at 68 years old the trips are very tiring! With me doing ALL the grunt work I'm hoping to be under $10K? The other reason to invest $10K is I'm currently training for an instrument rating. I just wish, as many other C337 owners, to have one of the New autopilots that single Cessnas and Pipers have as options.
Regards.

I hear you, Bill; I will be 67 this year, but at any age, having an autopilot, even a basic wing leveler, is worth a lot in a single-pilot operation. It gives you time to do many things, including watching for traffic and other tasks on any flight.

My vote would be for Autopilots Central. They run a schedule and seem to stick with the expected finish date. My work was supposed to be done at noon on a Friday (their normal end of week closing time), but everybody stayed until 5 pm to make sure I got out. They did this for me without over-time shop hour charges.

I see that you are in NE PA, so Tulsa is a long flight. My thoughts or at least a question for any shop working on a 400 is, "are you going to tune it to the airplane on a check flight?" Two shops in Texas were honest with me by saying: we are going to pull everything out and send it to APC, and your airplane will sit here while APC goes through your gyros and boxes. What we won't be able to do is tweak it inflight when we put it back together."

As in a post I made concerning my autopilot work at APC, twice as much was found after the test flight as were found at the bench. This lead to some small components being replaced. I wanted to fly the flight with the two technicians but was smart enough to let their pilot do it as I figured he had seen it all. It was a smart move as, after the first flight, he told me all that they do on the flight (about an hour's worth of flying), and he showed me his kneeboard with notes; a lot was going on that I would have never thought to look at, let alone understand. The pilot was a Cessna guy, and he said he probably flew the acceptance flight in my airplane as it rolled out.

In that other topic, I also relayed how it takes two technicians in flight, one in the right rear overhead of the airplane, one upfront, to do what they do. These two fellows have a couple of unique "boxes" that they have made over the years of 400 work that help them fine-tune the beast.

When looking at other shops and their bids on your work, ask them if the actual 400 bench setup and testing will be done in-house and will they be accomplishing the inflight adjustments. The first will unnecessarily increase the downtime on your airplane if sent off, and the latter will not provide a finished product.

I had found a complete Cessna bench setup for sale, the same boxes on the APC bench (not the inflight boxes), and offered to buy it for my shop. The guy that works on my airplane didn't want it as he said there was more to it than that. He said, "it's too late to acquire the knowledge that an outfit like APC has." At least APC is training the young guys.

With the certain schedule that APC maintains, I bought a round trip ticket on United from Tulsa to Victoria, TX, and back. It was the cost of one night's hotel and meals. In that my wife and I go to St. Paul twice a year to see family; with a stop in TUL, we are going to plan an overnight on the early fall flight so that APC can keep the 400 tuned up. I spoke with the boss; he thought it a great idea as too often so many are letting their 400s go. He felt the 400 is better than the alternative.

My freshly overhauled AI was bad; still, in warranty, I found a replacement in TUL (Porter-Strait Instrument Company) and returned mine for warranty as I would like one on the shelf as a failure ends 90% of my flying. APC suggested that when returned, I send it to them to adjust the nulls as it will not come from the instrument shop ready to slide into the Skymaster and it's 400. It's not a complete 400 tuneup, but it will keep me going until I get back to TUL. I still haven't received the AI back, but when it does, I will slap a label on it and send it to TUL. I have a T&B on the shelf that needs O/H; I will send it to PSIC as well; I liked how they worked with APC and the help they offered to get my airplane out of the shop!

Yep, $10K is probably worth it all considered!

[cessnadriver]

TO: Patrol Pilot.
Thanks for the reply.
A hangar neighbor suggested Autopilot Central, as he had them do some component work for him. So I contacted them. Randy the old mechanic said "we no longer work on the 400!" Yep, that's what he said, he mentioned that they WOULD work on it but basically if I needed parts I'd be screwed?? So I contacted Mayday Avionics in Grand Rapids, MI. Suggested by a SOAPA member. The main tech there called me and said he had a lot of experience with the 400s. He also said that they have an electronic engineering company that makes several problem components in the amplifier, ie, transistors and resistors, that are the usual replacement parts needed. I'll have to ask about the test flight. As I said earlier, that shop is much closer. I haven't decided which shop I'll be going to. Have to ask more questions to each shop before making my choice.
Thanks for your assistance.
Regards, BILLS
PS: I live in NW Pennsylvania, between Erie and Pittsburgh.