DeltaHawk DHK235A4 survey

[mdrob1985]

Dusting off an old topic. Deltahawk engines came out with news this year that they are currently seeking approval for a 235 hp variant on their Jet A (diesel) for cylinder. Their design looks very straightforward and low maintenance. It should have a great TBO if/when approved. They are currently doing a survey to see what platforms to pursue. http://deltahawk.com/survey They are looking at an installed price point of $110K. That's higher than a rebuilt Continental, not higher than a new one, if you can even get one. It would just be good to have a lower emission, lower maintenance and longer life solution to the 360's. Competition certainly would not hurt the current engine pricing. There are hybrid electric alternatives being tested in a 337 platform and Deltahawk is promoting this as a potential partner to the electric engine that part of that. I plan to fly this thing until I can no longer get duct tape to hold the wings on,
so it's not a sunk cost issue for me. I need a long life, efficient solution. Any thoughts?

[Learjetter]

Some outfit is slow-rolling 200HP turbines, at $80k, and promising wide STC applicability. If they demonstrate one, and prove it’s not “vaporware” I’d be way more interested in turbines than newer piston technology.
Https://turb.aero

[mdrob1985]

The guys at Deltahawk already have an STC for their 180hp platform and will be getting it for 200hp & 235hp, expected at any time. They are a US based company. I am suspect of the Australian firm getting an STC with a turbine. That would likely remove a 20K ceiling restriction we have on them now and require a high altitude endorsement. I would also not want to give up 50hp over what I have now. I'd gain another 20hp with the DHK variant and long service life. No electronics and way fewer moving components to fail. I think it will be well received across the entire GA spectrum. If Cali keeps pushing their no emissions agenda, you won't be able to buy AV gas at some point and will be forced to find alternative fuel pistons. It would be cool on startup though to have the turbine. I just don't see that one happening anytime soon.

[Galvine]

I am interested in the Deltahawk.
Thx

Greg

[mdrob1985]

Good morning: Please follow that link to the Deltahawk survey and add another vote for the 337's. Currently we are showing a 2% response rate. The 182 leads at 10%. Maybe if we can land ahead or equal to the Bonanzas around 6% we could generate more interest. It's a simple survey with a pretty low "n" number so we should be able to influence the results. Then just pray they listen. Same strategy around getting a digital AP solution.

[Galvine]

Ok. I completed survey

Thx

[Dr.Dan]

I submitted as well. Buying two of them is pretty expensive, but I like the idea of options into the future.

If you include all the responses from planes with tsio 360's, it's a reasonable percentage.

dd

[YankeeClipper]

$220k is way out of my range for an upgrade. Even if I got 50K for the engines I have, it would take me a century and a half for something like that to pay for itself. I do love the idea of diesels for props, but I could never pony up that kind of money for it.

[chflyer]

Originally Posted by mdrob1985

The guys at Deltahawk already have an STC for their 180hp platform and will be getting it for 200hp & 235hp, expected at any time. They are a US based company. I am suspect of the Australian firm getting an STC with a turbine. That would likely remove a 20K ceiling restriction we have on them now and require a high altitude endorsement. I would also not want to give up 50hp over what I have now. I'd gain another 20hp with the DHK variant and long service life. No electronics and way fewer moving components to fail. I think it will be well received across the entire GA spectrum. If Cali keeps pushing their no emissions agenda, you won't be able to buy AV gas at some point and will be forced to find alternative fuel pistons. It would be cool on startup though to have the turbine. I just don't see that one happening anytime soon.

Lot‘s of ways to look at this and understandable that the price is a challenge. We‘ll have to see how the facts look once there is some field experience.

First, I couldn‘t find find any available STC yet. The DHK180A4 was certified two years ago and has a TCDS but I‘ve not heard of any flying installations other than the company‘s own aircraft. The RV14 build seems to be closest att. Last year they were working on improvements that would be in the first deliveries (i.e. TCDS revision not yet approved). They have not announced the production approval needed before they can produce and deliver for the certified market. They do offer some progress details from time to time which keeps the interest up, but tangible progress is slow and timeline estimates are proving to be optimistic. They are obviously trying to do this right for the first real deliveries which is laudable.

If the supporting arguments prove correct, then the 2x IO-360 price may be worthwhile depending on the aircraft application:
- Jet-A vs Avgas (availability could be a deciding factor for operations outside USA)
- safety (no electricals, bulletproof single-lever operation, fail-soft - each cylinder has its own fuel pump, etc)
- takeoff performance due to higher torque
- full performance right up to critical altitude 17500‘
- better reliability and lower maintenance (est 3000 TBO, 40% fewer parts, no valves or valve train)

What is the source of the survey results being mentioned here? The ranking and weighting would be interesting to see? They do have a page with design/photoshop pictures of how an eventual 182T installation would look, but that is hidden and only accessible directly. As mentioned, nothing tangible.
https://www.deltahawk.com/engines/cessna-182t/

[n86121]

There were many manufacturers of automobiles before the model T. They were playthings of the super wealthy. Because there were so few buyers, at very high prices, the few suppliers tried to compete for that next rare buyer.

The exotic car remains like this today. As former LOTUS owner in the 1970s when they were truly rare.

See my point?

It is always easier to sell a few things at very high prices to just a few buyers.

When I setup captive finance leasing g for all the GA mfrs in the late 90’s, (yes, there is a story), it was the same thing. They were all trying g to grab that “next” premium buyer.

Henry Fords innovation were two fold: 1. Mass production to get u it. OST down, and 2, selling price to a wide market.

Everyone uses certification costs at their excuse. But it’s a one time cost.

Even the LSA mfrs were priced to grab the personal losthis medical and had to sell his nice Maloney, or whatever. So it was $150k plus plus.

Where is GAs Hs RY Ford?