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  #1  
Old 10-29-04, 07:32 PM
rwenner rwenner is offline
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Center line thrust rating

Can someone tell me how the FAA in all its wisdom has come to the conclusion that we must now have a multi rating to fly our 337 yet we no longer can get that rating in our airplane. We now must get the regular multi rating in an airplane that has a VMC
Am I dreaming or did the Fed's once again trip over their own ____'s
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  #2  
Old 10-29-04, 08:03 PM
Pat Schmitz Pat Schmitz is offline
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I purchased my Skymaster in February of this year, and also obtained my Multi at the same time. At that time, I was told by my FAA Examiner that I had the option to get the multi in a 337 (CLT) aircraft, but my Multi would be restricted to CLT only. Obviously, under that scenario - all logged time in your CLT 337 is logged as multi-clt (limited).

However, if you obtain your multi in a conventional, you can log your time in a clt as plain old multi....thus no restriction on CLT only.

Where this is of value to you....Down the road, if you upgrade to something conventional (if that can be considered an upgrade from a pressurized, turbocharged, 337!!) your insurance will count all your multi time towards the new aircraft. If you are CLT restricted, it will 'NOT' count towards your insurance rating in a conventional multi.... While I LOVE MY 337.... It's just a matter of economics that you should seriously consider getting your multi in a conventional plane...

Bottom line - spend the extra $3,000 - $4,000

In the end, you will have an unrestricted multi, and the pride of knowing you can fly both if you should choose to 'step down' from the 337!!

As to the regulatory FAA issue you mentioned - I would suggest getting a second opinion - unless my examiner was wrong.... I think you 'can' do a 337 only... but why beat up your engines... rent someone else's for that, save your engines, and get an unrestricted multi!!

Good Luck!
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  #3  
Old 10-29-04, 08:18 PM
Rickskymaster Rickskymaster is offline
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Rwenner

did you use to have a Bonanza, if so I sent you a private email.
Rick
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  #4  
Old 10-30-04, 08:58 AM
larry bowdish's Avatar
larry bowdish larry bowdish is offline
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I did the conventional multi program, a place in TX, at RBD. Less than 1 week, beat up their airplanes, less the $1K for the rating. You still have to get there, but I highly recommend it. It was called MEI, and you can find them by looking in Trade-a-Plane, or calling the FBO at RBD.

As Pat mentioned, if you ever transition to turbine, http://www.robocart.com/005/8832700.htm all 337 time will be ME time, not CLT-ME. Also, you avoid tearing up your aircraft, etc, etc.

Last edited by larry bowdish : 10-30-04 at 09:26 AM.
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  #5  
Old 10-30-04, 11:17 AM
Pat Schmitz Pat Schmitz is offline
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A couple additional points I should add. The place I took my multi used a Piper Apache (Geronimo Upgrade) - It's like a flying upside down bathtub....A cast iron one...

Learning Single Engine Maneuvers, and having a solid understanding of VMC (not from a book, but by holding the rudder peddle to the floor until your leg is so tired, it starts to tremble) was one of the most eye-opening experiences I have ever had.. As single engine pilots, we all think it's no big deal, but when the critical engine is lost, things go bad in a big hurry if you don't have altitude, and speed - and an (experienced) awareness of VMC.

When the instructor suddenly pulled off my power on one engine on takeoff roll at 65 Mph... If my memory serves me correct, you should not practice that maneuver above 60% of rotation speed or you are going too fast, and risk a serious accident. We were closer to 80% Rotation speed - it put the plane into a side slide on the runway INSTANTLY, and we oscilated back/forth like three times - tires screaching and all.....

When we were done, I was angry, but I will NEVER forget how uncontrollable that plane was... I had both my hands on the yoke, preparing for rotation (and had forgotton the golden rule on takeoff roll) As a result - I keep my hand FIRMLY planted on the throttles all the way through the takeoff roll, until safe altitude is made...

From that, I learned two things:

1. I may never want to have a conventional now, because they are not nearly as safe and enjoyable to fly as the 337. VMC is serious, and the margin between maintaining it, and a positive climb are extremely narrow - often, you must sacrifice altitude to maintain VMC... With the 337, it's one less MAJOR thing to deal with when things go wrong.

2. I was GLAD that we were not using my plane for the training and checkride... It was extremely abusive, and shutting down/restarting an engine in flight is extremely hard on them... especially in the winter.. Most training schools will only do that maneuver with an engine that is near time, and they generally keep one engine in the fleet in the rotation for just that purpose.. It it blows...it was due anyway.

Give serious consideration to going conventional for your rating. You'll learn a ton, and save yourself $$ on future maintenance.

Last edited by Pat Schmitz : 10-30-04 at 11:27 AM.
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  #6  
Old 10-30-04, 06:22 PM
rwenner rwenner is offline
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I am aware of the VMC issues, thats why I don't have a conventional multi, and don't want one. If an instrustor pulled that on me getting out of the air plane without injury would only be the begining of his problems. I do like the idea of beating up someone elses plane, but I am still in shock that the FAA has decided that I don't have an option. They are telling me I can't get a CLT rating, I can't get a rating in the airplane I will be using the rating in. Next they will say you need an ATP and astronuat's rating to hang glide. How can you be required to get a rating that is not available in the airplane it will be used in?
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  #7  
Old 10-31-04, 08:09 AM
larry bowdish's Avatar
larry bowdish larry bowdish is offline
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What is most interesting, in all this, is that while the Skymaster has been out of production for DECADES (oh, that hurt), the first pressurized twin in ages is now entering production, and it is CLT. So, what do those folks do when they transition from the old 210 to their new A500? Go rent an Apache, get dual in a plane they will never fly?? Here, spend a million, and oh, BTW, you got to go someplace to learn to fly a multi??

I did my conventional in TX, as I wrote, in Travel Air's, which are a bit better than the apache. However, it was August, and TX, and we almost always had 3 people in the plane. For the checkride, you feather the prop, then the only approved method for restarting was DIVE until you get to 180, then unfeather. Talk about exciting!!

On the plus side, if you get your conventional ME rating, when you go for instrument, it will not be CLT limited. Also, you can do the Instrument stuff in your plane.

Last edited by larry bowdish : 10-31-04 at 08:17 AM.
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  #8  
Old 10-31-04, 12:12 PM
Pat Schmitz Pat Schmitz is offline
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Interesting point on the Adam 500!

Have we confirmed that he 'must' take his ME in a conventional?? In Feb/March - it was optional - when did it change? IF this is the case, the reason is probably that the FAA has few/no examiners that are checked out to do the exam in a 337. That was also one of the reasons I used the Apache - the examiner was not checked out in the 337 for the test. Since the 337 supply is limited and hoarded by us who love them... there are probably few being used for training/testing.
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  #9  
Old 10-31-04, 09:05 PM
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Jerry De Santis Jerry De Santis is offline
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ME

All in all, as strange as it might seem, you are better off with a conventional ME rating vs CLT rating. Those that have a CLT rating are not allowed to fly conventional twins and log the time. But, when they fly a CLT plane they get to log it as CLT time. Now, say in the future should that CLT pilot decide to purchase a conventional twin, the first thing the insurance company will ask is "How much multi engine time do you have?", guess what? You get to say none. That's right, none!

However, if you have a conventional ME and fly a CLT plane, you get to log it as multi engine time. So, when the insurance company ask how much multi engine time you have, you get to say all that time you flew the CLT is ME time.

Jerry
N34EC
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  #10  
Old 11-02-04, 08:30 AM
Ed Coffman Ed Coffman is offline
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My question is, who is telling you you can't take your test in the 337?FAR 61.45b2 clearly states you can take the test in a aircraft that can't perform all the manuevers [VMC] but you rating is limited to that type of aircraft.[centerline thrust 337]. The inspectors hand book lists many examples of aircraft that require Centerline thrust limitations including many military jets[f4's, f18's, f111's]. Again is it a designated examiner or a actual FAA employee that is telling you this? Good luck

Ed Coffman
________
HEALTH STORE

Last edited by Ed Coffman : 02-18-11 at 09:04 AM.
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  #11  
Old 11-04-04, 06:49 PM
amichelin amichelin is offline
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Another tidbit of news

I am multi rated in a non in line twin. I received my IFR rating in a single. The inspector told me that i can used my 337 with the single IFR rating. If I want a twin rating I can still used my 337 because the rules state that the "initial" test has to be in a non CL twin but that a subsequent test can be in any twin.

Makes sense huh.
Adam
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  #12  
Old 12-12-04, 10:13 AM
OSCARDEUCE OSCARDEUCE is offline
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2 years ago I was able to get my multi rating in the O-2. I have the CLT limitation fo now. My insurance co. required 30 hours instruction in the type before insuring me. I felt at least initially the most financially prudent was to get the instruction/rating in the O-2 then get my multi rating. Since most of the multi A/C I want to fly have separate ratings associated with them, (wishfully thinking -B-25) . I stuck with the plan. I'm not sure what rule changes have occured since then. Now I am working on my tailwheel endoresment. Then remove the CLT limitation. After my checkride the examiner told me 4-8 hous in a conventional multi and I could take a checkride to prove the VMC stuff.
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